Podcast XI: Clan Aid!

[ayase]

It's really about you thinking that someone is invalidating your emotions, which is in itself an emotional and probably unfair reaction. Why must someone automatically think I am attacking their emotions when what I want is to know the basis of their interpretation? (By the way, I think all animation - all art - is designed to elicit some kind of emotional reaction, be it shock or gooey feelings or a thoughtful stillness. So I'm not sure I agree with your show 'types'.)

Mmm, how German of you..... Why the wife can't leave the wife-beater? How can one explain emotions rationally? Wasn't part of your hate for the show because of your own emotions?

What I think those who approach a discussion purely emotionally should sometimes do, however, is to learn how to defend their views with reference to the show itself. If you want helpful discussion (and some people don't, some people are happy to watch a show and not talk about it with others), then it's important to be able to say 'I thought the characters were good for this reason; I thought this part of the narrative was effectively done because of this and this'. To constantly revert to the truism that your emotions/opinions are as valid as anyone else's is not just boring, but dead-ends the discourse. It's not possible to wholly disconnect emotion from your defence, but you need to acknowledge that your interpretations come from something concrete in the show and be able to identify them and thus defend them.

Ok, let's change this slightly. Is there a measurable criteria to define what is the best anime? Isn't "Best anime" a subjective concept? If it's subjective, what isn't based or guided by feelings?
If it's feeling related, can't I simply say that I rate anime X as high as I do because I like it? I just think that you're trying to rationalise it too much.
I never really stopped to think about what makes my favourite animes my favourites. I simply love them. Was it the music? The animation? The story? The characters? Or was it because when I watched anime XYZ, I was in a particular point in my life that re-enforced the connection I had with it?
Fro instance, what basis have you got to say that the kid in the show should hate the dad? Isn't it your own feelings giving meaning to what you see on screen?

Please continue.

 

[Rui]

I would have thought it would be obvious that Vivi was going to hate it from a mile away, slice of life or otherwise. She's an outspoken, educated young lady who likes strong female characters. Clannad, while a massive improvement over some other works with Key roots, is still at its core a series full of relatively pathetic girls who are designed to make the adult male audience want to care for and protect them. I personally liked Clannad more than expected (almost entirely due to Akio's devastating manliness, admittedly) but I can see how everything about it would be poison to a lot of female viewers. Kanon and Air rub me up completely the wrong way too.

I'd have been more shocked if Vivi suddenly declared her love for bishoujo series after watching it. That would be something to see.

Some really nice, interesting perspectives from the Clannad fans in this thread, though.

R

 

[chaos]

Guys, please - let's not fight at Christmas.

That's what boxing day is for.

=) Where do you get the impression that I'm fighting?

.... {trimmed} ....

Please continue.

What are you implying here ? =P

I would have thought it would be obvious that Vivi was going to hate it from a mile away, slice of life or otherwise. She's an outspoken, educated young lady who likes strong female characters.

This is kinda my point here. But then again, I understand the validity of this exercise as well.

Clannad, while a massive improvement over some other works with Key roots, is still at its core a series full of relatively pathetic girls who are designed to make the adult male audience want to care for and protect them.

That's what moe's all about, right?

I'd have been more shocked if Vivi suddenly declared her love for bishoujo series after watching it. That would be something to see.

Isn't Madoka, Utena and Sailor Moon bishoujo?
I can see her liking bishoujo, as long as not moe slice-of-life.

 

[Rui]

Setting aside the strictest definition of shoujo/shounen etc since Madoka was an anime project, Madoka is aimed at adult men. Utena and Sailor Moon are aimed at females. All three enjoy a healthy crossover audience but I wouldn't call them the same genre (Nanoha is another magical girl series aimed squarely at males). By bishoujo series I meant series where cute, pretty girls/women were the focus, rather than say, the story being so.

Vivi might like moe elements if they aren't the focus of a show (I don't know, I'm just guessing now and I know she can speak for herself loud and clear) but I fancy that even female-orientated moe characters would probably annoy her as it's pandering to a fanbase in place of being creatively artistic. I don't think it's as simple as drawing the conclusion that someone dislikes all slice of life just because they object to bishoujo VN adaptations full of weak girls.

R

 

[chaos]

Setting aside the strictest definition of shoujo/shounen etc since Madoka was an anime project, Madoka is aimed at adult men. Utena and Sailor Moon are aimed at females. All three enjoy a healthy crossover audience but I wouldn't call them the same genre (Nanoha is another magical girl series aimed squarely at males). By bishoujo series I meant series where cute, pretty girls/women were the focus, rather than say, the story being so.

Vivi might like moe elements if they aren't the focus of a show (I don't know, I'm just guessing now and I know she can speak for herself loud and clear) but I fancy that even female-orientated moe characters would probably annoy her as it's pandering to a fanbase in place of being creatively artistic. I don't think it's as simple as drawing the conclusion that someone dislikes all slice of life just because they object to bishoujo VN adaptations full of weak girls.

R

Ok, I was going for bishuoujo = pretty girls. Genre and audience-wise they are indeed different.

My comment about she hating slice of life, is of course, an exageration. Maybe all slice of life from KyoAni? (she did tell me she hated KyoAni output, with one or another exception)

 

[VivisQueen]

I love Haruhi (see Disappearance review). I loved FMP: Fumoffu and TSR. Kanon, on the other hand, was dull, Lucky Star killed my brain cells, and Clannad only told me that women are pathetic and have to die. I therefore have no need to check out Air or K-On or whatever else KyoAni does that looks similar to that romance VN moetripe to know it will be a massive waste of my time. Call me when they make more FMP.

Oh, and I love bishoujo and bishounen. I sometimes fear I'm only in it for the pretty characters - ever since my first taste of Rose of Versailles in my childhood.

 

[chaos]

I love Haruhi (see Disappearance review). I loved FMP: Fumoffu and TSR. Kanon, on the other hand, was dull, Lucky Star killed my brain cells, and Clannad only told me that women are pathetic and have to die. I therefore have no need to check out Air or K-On or whatever else KyoAni does that looks similar to that romance VN moetripe to know it will be a massive waste of my time. Call me when they make more FMP.

Oh, and I love bishoujo and bishounen. I sometimes fear I'm only in it for the pretty characters - ever since my first taste of Rose of Versailles in my childhood.

Haruhi is sci-fi, fantasty and comedy.
FMP is Action, Sci-fi, Mecha, Romantic comedy.

So, I got the KyoAni comment wrong, but it was clear in my mind that you said that. (or maybe to the recent output, excluding disappearance?), but I think that my comment on you hating KyoAni slice of life still stands.

What's your views on things like Azumanga Daioh, Nishijou, Niea _7, Pani Poni Dash..... ?

In any case I still think it was obvious that you wouldn't like it, so why bother?

K-On has nothing to do with Key shows, although it's heavy on moe and it was an ok show. Awesome music though, and the film is quite good IMHO. (If I'm not wrong, Key stuff is a sub-genre in itself for VN's as they usually are overly-emotional and everybody has to die in it....)

Air was great, I haven't seen Kanon or Clannad yet, but Air did move me emotionally, so yes, I'd watch them eventually.

As for VN, have you seen Higurashi? Fate/Stay Night? Tsukihime? Steins;Gate? All of them are great anime and based on VN's.


And this vid explains Rose of Versailles as no other!

 

[VivisQueen]

I do rant quite heavily about KyoAni, usually in relation to their romance VN moetripe. I often forget that they have made other shows I liked. So I do take responsibility for the impression I give on that. However, I can't possibly avoid KyoAni on principle - only in specific cases - because they do other things I enjoy.

I also would never be opposed to something just because it has VN origins. Fate/Stay Night was ****; Fate Zero was superb. Steins;Gate was excellent. Higurashi got annoying with its constant repetition and I never finished it. It depends.

 

[Professor Irony]

In any case I still think it was obvious that you wouldn't like it, so why bother?

Surely to exclude one of our regular presenters on such grounds would be biased? To me, that's loading the dice in favour of Clannad. Or any show in similar circumstances, for that matter.

If Vivis had come on, called it a sack of crap and not said anything else, I could understand that would be unfair, but she fully explained why she didn't like it and I feel that makes the exercise entirely worthwhile.

At some level, you choose a review based on wanting to know what Reviewer X thinks of a certain show, and I think this thread has shown that people are interested in knowing Vivis' rationale for not liking Clannad.