Noein - Explanation Needed (Minor Spoilers)

Aion

Aion

Time-Traveller
I started Noein a couple of days ago and I'm currently at episode 15. It's a great show, one of the best I've watched, although it does seem to move at quite a slow pace.

Noein is more complex than your average anime thanks to quantum physics playing a major role in the plot. The chatter at the end of episode 10 and most of the explanation in episode 11 went over my head rather than into it, so I'm in need of a better educated person to explain (as simplified as humanly possible) how the parts of quantum physics used in Noein work.

At first I thought it was simple - Different universes exist with the same people in each. Some are similar to each other and others have the people in each world go down different paths. One of these universes seeks to conquer the others (Shangri-La), hence it invades.

Sadly (for me), it seems the plot goes far, far...far deeper than that. From what I've understood thus far, the end of one universe somehow means the end of all the different universes, I'm assuming because one of the possible paths is removed and time collapses on itself since all the dimensions are created by the people in each universe going down different paths/making different choices. The situation has been further complicated in episode 15 after Noein informed Haruka about the paths of all the dimensions converging with Lacrima or Shangri-a at some stage.

On a related note, I can't say I have any understanding whatsoever of how Haruka simply viewing a possible future means it's destined to happen. I can understand the viewpoint that all dimensions are illusions until they are observed, but I simply don't get how Haruka viewing anything can make it different.

...oh well, as confusing as it is for someone with no knowledge of something as brain killing as quantum physics, I still thinking the show is fantastic - The art, animation, characters, humour, fights and music are all close to 10/10. Only the slow pacing lets Noein down.
 
Sorry I cant actually give you an explanation as Ive only seen up to episode 10, though I just thought Id say how much I enjoy this anime, excellently animated and one of the best soundtracks Ive heard.

Also the bit about Haruka viewing an event altering things........well, actually this is based on a real quantum physics experiment, which is actually quite amazing(Im very interested in this knd of thing),.

Heres a link to explain it if you give half a damn.
Later.


http://forums.animeuknews.net/posting.php?mode=reply&t=8518
 
Just got the box set of this the other day unfortunately I have not watched much of it yet as with the slow pace as mentioned and being a bit tired I feel asleep after a couple of episodes, and I just have not had the time to get back into it.

Sounds like it should be good though with all the alternate realities and quantum physics. I did chemistry at Uni so I like science bassed stuff. The whole thing with infinate universes comes about because for any situation there maybe any number of outcomes and for each of these a universe will be created and so on and so on for each new situation. Now just try and get your head around that this happens for every person, animal or piece of matter in each of these universes, these univereses are then begining and ending at an infinatley fast rate.
 
I can't answer your question, and I doubt no one else would either, as it's all theory at the most. (I'll read the question again in a while though to see if I read too fast).

What I can do though is simply explain what quantum theory is, and how as I can see it has nothing to do with time/dimensions.

So quantum theory is basically, anything in the universe can act as a wave or a particle. Some scientist (I don't know all the specitfic details of him and his equation can't be pasted here) - made an equation that just works - it can't be proved because it simply goes against every other kind of understanding of science.
It works to a certain degree though, because you only get reasonable answers when the thing you're calculating is really small (i.e an electron). You could calculate the wavelength of a person, but it'd be a ridiculous number.

So, that's nothing to do with Noein, really.
 
melonpan said:
So quantum theory is basically, anything in the universe can act as a wave or a particle
Click to expand...
Um... not quite.

See, there's 2 "types" of physics, say - classical and quantum. Classical is Newtonian type physics (apples, etc). Quantum is dealing with the same kinda stuff, except really really small. Turns out you need some different formulas to get accurate results at the quantum level.

When dealing with parallel universes (which is what Noein is, far as I've seen) while it doesn't particularly belong to quantum physics, the quantum physics way of looking at things turns out to be the best way to consider it.

Incidentally, there's no real physical basis for parallel universes - but it does make for some good stories ^^
 
I don't want people to explain all the theories and the basis for all quantum physic theories. What I want is a simplified explanation of the quantum physic stuff relevant to Noein. :p

Question 1: If one universe were to be destroyed, how would it mean the rest would also? It's been mentioned a few times.

Question 2: Haruka can view the past and future of all dimensions. It's been said that anything she, with her powers given by the Dragon Torque, views of the future is destined to be reality and it cannot be changed. How does this observer thing work?

Question 3: I'm guessing 'quantum teleportation' is the ability to teleport to different universes. This is supposed to be dangerous for the area it's tested on... Basically, I have no understanding about what exactly quantum teleportation is and why it's dangerous for the test area. Any Noein fans feel like answering this one?

Dracos said:
Just got the box set of this the other day unfortunately I have not watched much of it yet as with the slow pace as mentioned and being a bit tired I feel asleep after a couple of episodes, and I just have not had the time to get back into it.
Click to expand...

While the series does take a fair bit of explaining, not a lot actually happens in most episodes. As a result, what was interesting at the start (for example, Yuu's character) becomes dull quite fast. There's still been no explanation about the supernatural powers the Dragon Knights have after 15 episodes...

Apart from when I started, where I watched about 8 episodes in a row, I've struggled to watch more than a few episodes at a time. The slow pacing does start to get to you once the early new series magic starts to vanish.

About the box set, I was quite tempted to order it when I saw it on Amazon for £26... However, with it being a Mangled release and Mangle releases usually dropping in price, I think I'll wait until it lowers in price a bit more.

Dracos said:
Sounds like it should be good though with all the alternate realities and quantum physics. I did chemistry at Uni so I like science bassed stuff. The whole thing with infinate universes comes about because for any situation there maybe any number of outcomes and for each of these a universe will be created and so on and so on for each new situation. Now just try and get your head around that this happens for every person, animal or piece of matter in each of these universes, these univereses are then begining and ending at an infinatley fast rate.
Click to expand...

That part I actually understood already...or at least the concept. It's easy enough to understand the idea of different universes being created for every choice a person makes and was the only part I understood from the lengthy explanation given during episode 11.

What I don't get is how every universe would be destroyed if one of the universes vanished.

The end of the episode 11 explanation went...

Person 1: If it's as you imagine (talking about the dangers of Quantum teleportation), what will happen after this?
Person 2: The stability of the quantum dimensions will be lost and every dimension will expire. The entire cosmos will be wiped out.
Me: ;__________________;
 
Aion said:
Question 1: If one universe were to be destroyed, how would it mean the rest would also? It's been mentioned a few times.

Question 2: Haruka can view the past and future of all dimensions. It's been said that anything she, with her powers given by the Dragon Torque, views of the future is destined to be reality and it cannot be changed. How does this observer thing work?

Question 3: I'm guessing 'quantum teleportation' is the ability to teleport to different universes. This is supposed to be dangerous for the area it's tested on... Basically, I have no understanding about what exactly quantum teleportation is and why it's dangerous for the test area. Any Noein fans feel like answering this one?
Click to expand...
Well... 1 and 3 I'd have to finish watching Noein to answer... as at the moment my answers would be "it wouldn't" and "it's not" respectively...

2 however, is your fairly standard Heisenberg uncertainty principle at work, that most people are familiar with in the form of Schrodingers Cat. I'll try to explain simply in terms of Noein... imagine a chess board with an infinite number of squares. Let each square be a different potential universe. Now let the universe be a quantum wavefunction - basically, so it exists as all of the potential universes at the same time, is in every one of the squares, provided it is not observed. As soon as it is observed, the wavefunction collapses so that it only occupies a single point - a single square. Which in Noein would contain the future destined to be reality.

Note that "observed" here doesn't mean looking at it... it relates to physically interacting with it.

The Double-slit experiment is the traditional example of this happening in a real situation (although with photons or electrons rather than universes :p ).
 
Aion said:
Question 1: If one universe were to be destroyed, how would it mean the rest would also? It's been mentioned a few times.
Click to expand...

It's actually given an explanation later in the show, so I shouldn't spoil it. But it boils down to the exact method of destruction used in the story.

Question 2: Haruka can view the past and future of all dimensions. It's been said that anything she, with her powers given by the Dragon Torque, views of the future is destined to be reality and it cannot be changed. How does this observer thing work?
Click to expand...

In Quantum theory, the observer has an effect on what is being observed. Like you said, because Haruka is the Dragon Torque, she's a special case. It leads to my favourite moment in the series. The first time I've seen Schrodinger's Cat as a plot point.


Question 3: I'm guessing 'quantum teleportation' is the ability to teleport to different universes. This is supposed to be dangerous for the area it's tested on... Basically, I have no understanding about what exactly quantum teleportation is and why it's dangerous for the test area. Any Noein fans feel like answering this one?
Click to expand...

Quantum teleportation is a valid theory, that has to do with the odd quantum properties of tiny particles. It begins with the idea, if you do something unexpected to one particle, halfway across the universe, a similar particle will also do something weird for no apparent reason. If you know which two particles are linked in such a way, then you can use the effect to instantaneously transmit, or teleport information.

There's something far more confusing written here...

http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/

But it's real.

The thing is, it's an effect that doesn't apply to the macroscopic world, ie people. But Noein gets around it with an awesome explanation. (It's why when the Dragon Knights are maimed, and lose bits of their anatomy, there's no blood or viscera) It also gives a vague reason for their abilities.
 
Ramadahl said:
melonpan said:
So quantum theory is basically, anything in the universe can act as a wave or a particle
Click to expand...
Um... not quite.

See, there's 2 "types" of physics, say - classical and quantum. Classical is Newtonian type physics (apples, etc). Quantum is dealing with the same kinda stuff, except really really small. Turns out you need some different formulas to get accurate results at the quantum level.
Click to expand...

Yes quite actually. Anything can act as a wave of particle, it's just a planet acting as a wave wouldn't be feasible suggestion - its wavelength would be ridiculously small - that's not to say it doesn't act as a wave though. My Physics teacher calculated the wavelength of a person running, so yes it can act on anything, it doesn't have to be something extremely small - it's just extremely small particles are the only things that give feasible answers, which is why you only use the equation with very small particles. I never made a suggestion that you'd use the equation with normal sized things.
 
melonpan said:
Ramadahl said:
melonpan said:
So quantum theory is basically, anything in the universe can act as a wave or a particle
Click to expand...
Um... not quite.

See, there's 2 "types" of physics, say - classical and quantum. Classical is Newtonian type physics (apples, etc). Quantum is dealing with the same kinda stuff, except really really small. Turns out you need some different formulas to get accurate results at the quantum level.
Click to expand...

Yes quite actually. Anything can act as a wave of particle, it's just a planet acting as a wave wouldn't be feasible suggestion - its wavelength would be ridiculously small - that's not to say it doesn't act as a wave though. My Physics teacher calculated the wavelength of a person running, so yes it can act on anything, it doesn't have to be something extremely small - it's just extremely small particles are the only things that give feasible answers, which is why you only use the equation with very small particles. I never made a suggestion that you'd use the equation with normal sized things.
Click to expand...

Exactly, this actually gives way to an interesting theory that in fact all things are fundamentally comprised of waves as opposed to matter, and matter is simply standing waves, not sure if youve heard this one melonpan.

I tend to explore a lot of things in science on the other side of the coin too, instead of simply taking what established science has to say for granted.
 
Just finished Noein. The story FINALLY progressed fast in the last 5 or so episodes. I didn't understand a great deal towards the end; some of the lack of understanding being due to no explanation and most due to complexity.

I found the possible future stuff shown in episode 22 and 23 amazing to watch. Seeing adult versions of the characters in dark, realistic and tragic futures was just...something else after getting so attached to the cast. I enjoyed the Ai and Isami possible future stuff the most (both of them being my favourite characters) and was happy to see the dark futures shown end with them getting together.

As I said above, I didn't understand an awful lot. I don't believe any explanation was even given about the powers of the supernatural Dragon Knights and how they can transform into huge monsters. The same can be said for the bizarre Shangri-La monsters, what happened to make Karasu's world/Hakodate(sp?) turn from Yuu's into the possible future La'cryma shows and a fair few other things.

Anyway... All in all, I enjoyed Noein a lot. The slow pace did make me lose interest for awhile, but I couldn't stop watching once I got back into it and the pace sped up for the end. Even without truly understanding the complex stuff, Noein was still very easy to watch due to the large amount of slice of life stuff. Highly recommend.

Question: Does anyone own the Mangle set? If so, could you tell me about the subs and overall quality please? :)
 
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I got mine from the US. DVD Pacific were selling it for £12, not including P&P.

Manga released it in the US with translated subtitles.
they released it in the UK with dubtitles.

Go figure!
 
Sweet! I assumed Noein would be over the customs limit, it being a 24 episode series and all.

Are you happy with the quality of the set/video/subtitles? It's well worth £16 if the set is HQ. :D
 
Aion said:
Are you happy with the quality of the set/video/subtitles? It's well worth £16 if the set is HQ. :D
Click to expand...

AnimeOnDVD said:
Audio:
For our primary viewing session, we listened to this show in its original language of Japanese. While not too unusual, Manga has created a 5.1 mix for the Japanese track but does provide the original stereo mix as well. The 5.1 mix is decent and it provides a much fuller sounding forward mix, but it isn't a show that was designed to use a 5.1 mix heavily so there isn't all that much of a full surround feeling to it. There is a fair bit of action along the way here and it is well represented as is dialogue, which finds some good placement as the scenes shift around well with the cast. Dialogue is clean and clear throughout and we had no problems with dropouts or distortions during regular playback.

Video:
Originally airing in 2005, the transfer for this series is presented in its original aspect ratio of 1.78:1 and is enhanced for anamorphic playback. Visually, this series is well designed and well animated though some of its designs may look like they're done to be minimal and on the cheap. The lush backgrounds in many of the locations within the town look fantastic and maintain a lot of detail while some of the character designs, particularly those from La'cryma, have an almost minimalist feel to them in terms of detail. This is true of the human cast as well but they're able to cover it up a bit more with varying clothes and simply be being more familiar. The slightly alien feel given off by the La'cyrmaians works in the shows favor though. Colors are vibrant and rich, black levels look great and the show is free of cross coloration and aliasing. There are a few visual tricks used to change the look of the show at times and these maintain a very strong feel and don't break-up or macroblock at all.
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I think this is the first time I've read this review, and this has made me very happy about buying this series without having to doubt the quality of the video.

Manga Entertainment UK's problems were out of their control, and they're an awesome company, so I think it's pretty unjustified to go around calling them "Mangle Entertainment". If there's someone to blame for all the issues with the UK release, it's Starz to blame (if I'm correct).

I seriously can't believe I didn't think about buying this set earlier. For about £15 delivered from DVD Pacific this is a steal and it's not very often I can watch something worry free about there being visual problems.
Awesome!
 
It was my review that persuaded you, wasn't it?

melonpan said:
I think this is the first time I've read this review, and this has made me very happy about buying this series without having to doubt the quality of the video.

Manga Entertainment UK's problems were out of their control, and they're an awesome company, so I think it's pretty unjustified to go around calling them "Mangle Entertainment". If there's someone to blame for all the issues with the UK release, it's Starz to blame (if I'm correct).

I seriously can't believe I didn't think about buying this set earlier. For about £15 delivered from DVD Pacific this is a steal and it's not very often I can watch something worry free about there being visual problems.
Awesome!
Click to expand...

I ordered it after doing some research earlier, Melon - It costs £16.12 with shipping.

There's no pics on the net, but I've read that the set simply comes with the 5 normal sized volumes in a case, unlike the R2 set (I believe the R2 set is a slimpak set). The R1 set must be huge. :D

Also, FYI, I started calling them Mangle Ent. because I saw someone comment about Americans calling them that.
 
I think I got the boxset for around £18 all in from the US. The only niggle I have about the video is I have noticed some movement artifacts in the first few episodes, but as I watch most of my DVDs projected on a 6' wide screen in my front room if they are there I notice them in anything.
 
This is the best/only picture of the set I've found:

m5072.jpg


Dracos said:
I think I got the boxset for around £18 all in from the US. The only niggle I have about the video is I have noticed some movement artifacts in the first few episodes, but as I watch most of my DVDs projected on a 6' wide screen in my front room if they are there I notice them in anything.
Click to expand...

6 inch!? Geez, I thought I had it bad with my 19" monitor!!!! That's only a little bigger than my....




60'*



Anyway, tell me about the subtitle quality. Have you spotted anything mangled yet?
 
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