New Anime Releases 27/06/2011: Akira & Gurren Lagann!

[Vashdaman]

Hmm I'm not sure, I do think there are quite a few characters that do genuinely look like women. For example take those Vampire Kinght guys replace their bodies with slightly smaller and more femine ones, give them a different hair cut and you wouldn't be able to tell they were ever men. Oh and Raiden from MGS2 anyone...

But then maybe thats because I'm of the view that men shouldn't be pretty. Handsome and chiseled(staying chiseled is a constant worry and obsession for me, I don't care about a belly but I gotta stay chised) yes but pretty no. I find guys only tend to look "pretty" when they lose sight of their gloriously rugged birthright and start wearing "pretty" clothes and makeup. Its clearly a bit of a theme in Japanese pop music however.

 

[nebular]

No Streamline dub, no interest

 

[Rui]

Ooh juicy response

Hmm I'm not sure, I do think there are quite a few characters that do genuinely look like women. For example take those Vampire Kinght guys replace their bodies with slightly smaller and more femine ones, give them a different hair cut and you wouldn't be able to tell they were ever men. Oh and Raiden from MGS2 anyone...

In MGS2, he was a bit wimpy-looking. In MGS4 however I thought he was awesome and he's still very pretty. I think it's cheating to say that if you change their body shapes and hairstyles etc they'd look like women. There are a lot of real world women who would look stereotypically manly if they had buzz cuts and lost their curves.

But then maybe thats because I'm of the view that men shouldn't be pretty. Handsome and chiseled(staying chiseled is a constant worry and obsession for me, I don't care about a belly but I gotta stay chised) yes but pretty no. I find guys only tend to look "pretty" when they lose sight of their gloriously rugged birthright and start wearing "pretty" clothes and makeup. Its clearly a bit of a theme in Japanese pop music however.

I think what you say here is a very important point. Historically girls have been expected to consume what is really a man's idea of a perfect guy (media having been controlled by males in the past). Taken to extremes, that's basically Duke Nukem or James Bond. I have never found archetypes like that even remotely attractive. It's fine that stuff aimed at guys has these characters for them to enjoy, but when things are aimed at girls it's appreciated when a different sense of aesthetics can come into play.

Girls have their own idea of what makes an attractive woman too, and again it doesn't tend to map neatly to a guy's view on average. I don't see men lining the streets to watch Sex and the City (*shudder*) at all, and the SitC girls look very different to Lara Croft or Revy from Black Lagoon etc. The fanservice ideals for guys of gigantic breasts (or lolicon for some people) and tiny short-shorts aren't really represented in feminine shows with female characters.

Of course, it could just be that we are all raging lesbians at heart and commonly want our ideal person to have the seductive beauty of a woman with the straightforward mind of a man. I'm cool with that interpretation as well.

R

 

[Vashdaman]

Ooh juicy response

Hmm I'm not sure, I do think there are quite a few characters that do genuinely look like women. For example take those Vampire Kinght guys replace their bodies with slightly smaller and more femine ones, give them a different hair cut and you wouldn't be able to tell they were ever men. Oh and Raiden from MGS2 anyone...

In MGS2, he was a bit wimpy-looking. In MGS4 however I thought he was awesome and he's still very pretty. I think it's cheating to say that if you change their body shapes and hairstyles etc they'd look like women. There are a lot of real world women who would look stereotypically manly if they had buzz cuts and lost their curves.

But then maybe thats because I'm of the view that men shouldn't be pretty. Handsome and chiseled(staying chiseled is a constant worry and obsession for me, I don't care about a belly but I gotta stay chised) yes but pretty no. I find guys only tend to look "pretty" when they lose sight of their gloriously rugged birthright and start wearing "pretty" clothes and makeup. Its clearly a bit of a theme in Japanese pop music however.

I think what you say here is a very important point. Historically girls have been expected to consume what is really a man's idea of a perfect guy (media having been controlled by males in the past). Taken to extremes, that's basically Duke Nukem or James Bond. I have never found archetypes like that even remotely attractive. It's fine that stuff aimed at guys has these characters for them to enjoy, but when things are aimed at girls it's appreciated when a different sense of aesthetics can come into play.

Girls have their own idea of what makes an attractive woman too, and again it doesn't tend to map neatly to a guy's view on average. I don't see men lining the streets to watch Sex and the City (*shudder*) at all, and the SitC girls look very different to Lara Croft or Revy from Black Lagoon etc. The fanservice ideals for guys of gigantic breasts (or lolicon for some people) and tiny short-shorts aren't really represented in feminine shows with female characters.

Of course, it could just be that we are all raging lesbians at heart and commonly want our ideal person to have the seductive beauty of a woman with the straightforward mind of a man. I'm cool with that interpretation as well.

R

Ooh thank you, your response isn't too juiceless either .

Ok yeah I was cheating of course, you do indeed get some men with more feminine features and some women with manly features. But I think anime like Vampire Knight do make a very clear point of making all their desirable male leads firmly in the feminine category.

But on to your main point, this is interesting indeed. I do see your point, but to be honest I think the media is still largely controlled by males, they are simply exploiting the "feminine looking male characters" element becuase right now it seems to sell, well in Japan anyway. All women will have different tastes, and I think many women do genuinely find the more traditional male archetype (physicaly at least) attractive (although I wouldn't say Duke nor our current Bond would do it for me if I was a lady :wink: ). Also the whole phenomena seems to be mainly popular in Japan (hence your confusion over Twilight's popularity), which seems to suggest that it might have something to do with cultural preferances. Although if I was Japanese schoolgirl I know who I like: Ken Watanabe (as seen in the Last Samurai), thats one bonafide hunk of a man :wink: .

Also I think its important to mention that I absolutely, positvely (see my other posts for refernce) despise all forms of fanservice. I think it's exploitive, demeaning, sexist and isn't relatable for the Japanese female youth. But is this feminine man-service actually any better or healthier than male aimed fan service? While maybe not as bad, a key point remains: young Japanese boys are completely unable to relate physically to these desired protagonists.

 

[Rui]

Also the whole phenomena seems to be mainly popular in Japan (hence your confusion over Twilight's popularity), which seems to suggest that it might have something to do with cultural preferances. Although if I was Japanese schoolgirl I know who I like: Ken Watanabe (as seen in the Last Samurai), thats one bonafide hunk of a man :wink: .

He doesn't quite do it for me but Japanese actors certainly do seem to run closer to my ideal aesthetics than the usual beefcake Hollywood types

Japanese boybands also seem to do better at pretty boys than our more loutish chaps in makeup. Perhaps Gackt should come over here and start a revolution of manly-yet-pretty guys on TV.

For some reason most of the pretty western male singers I can think of are in grungy indie bands or otherwise not quite mainstream. Shame.

Also I think its important to mention that I absolutely, positvely (see my other posts for refernce) despise all forms of fanservice. I think it's exploitive, demeaning, sexist and isn't relatable for the Japanese female youth. But is this feminine man-service actually any better or healthier than male aimed fan service?

We differ here as I enjoy fanservice of most kinds, whether it's sexist or not. No real world male can hope to be as amazing as Sebastian (Black Butler), but it's still a great fantasy. No real woman can be as shameless and maintain a physique like Echidna's (Queen's Blade), but dang, it's fun watching her bounce around ridiculously in combat

I see fanservice like chocolate cake; some people don't like it, and you can't live off chocolate cake alone. Knowing that doesn't change the fact that to me, it tastes nice.

While maybe not as bad, a key point remains: young Japanese boys are completely unable to relate physically to these desired protagonists.

I agree with that part (for both genders). There should be a healthy variety of shows with normal guys/girls in as well (even playing devil's advocate, if every show is fanservice then it's no longer shocking and fun!). For obviously silly shows I don't think it's a problem that every female has watermelon breasts and every guy is gorgeous, but for realistic shows I like to see realistic designs. There are plenty of the latter type around (Hourou Musuko was lovely for this and presented a number of great role models for normal people) but there does seem to be a bit of a fad at the moment to have as much fanservice as possible in all kinds of shows, replacing the actual plot.

The problem with boys having dubious role models seems worldwide as well but somehow people don't worry about it as much. When I read vintage [US] comics it always surprised me how many ads for bodybuilding services and products were in amongst what I took to be lighthearted fantasy superhero stories. Given the age of the readers of a lot of those comics it seemed like a bit of a low blow.

When I was growing up, I had no role models in particular, but I would imagine most kids look to real people for guidance more than caricatures. Therefore real people prancing around in their underwear showing off their plastic boobs and bling (i.e. most current pop music, television and talent shows in this country, it seems) always feel like a more pressing problem than fantasy shows.

R

 

[ayase]

Of course, it could just be that we are all raging lesbians at heart and commonly want our ideal person to have the seductive beauty of a woman with the straightforward mind of a man.

Probably. I mean you are kinda describing the Übermensch there (though Revy could be flat as an ironing board for all I care, it's that relentlessly aggressive attitude that does it for me. I'm wary of saying "masculine" as that's making a judgement about what a man is expected to be and a woman is expected not to be, which I think lies at the heart of this whole issue about girly boys or boyish girls).

I think it's just high time we stopped expecting people to look or act a certain way because of their gender. There are always going to be manly men and girly girls, and I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened by the ascent of pretty boys or aggressive women. Everybody's different in both how they want to look and act and what they find attractive in others - The reasons behind these ideals is less clear and frankly, unimportant. The answer remains the same: Embrace the parts of culture you like and ignore the parts you don't. Unless of course someone tries to ban the things you like, in which case raise Hell.

 

[Vashdaman]

Also the whole phenomena seems to be mainly popular in Japan (hence your confusion over Twilight's popularity), which seems to suggest that it might have something to do with cultural preferances. Although if I was Japanese schoolgirl I know who I like: Ken Watanabe (as seen in the Last Samurai), thats one bonafide hunk of a man :wink: .

He doesn't quite do it for me but Japanese actors certainly do seem to run closer to my ideal aesthetics than the usual beefcake Hollywood types

Japanese boybands also seem to do better at pretty boys than our more loutish chaps in makeup. Perhaps Gackt should come over here and start a revolution of manly-yet-pretty guys on TV.

For some reason most of the pretty western male singers I can think of are in grungy indie bands or otherwise not quite mainstream. Shame.

I just googled Gackt out of curiosity

Wow
I thank my lucky starts there aren't too many people looking like him roaming the London streets, or else I would be a very confused young man. I'll never look at figs the same way again...

We differ here as I enjoy fanservice of most kinds, whether it's sexist or not. No real world male can hope to be as amazing as Sebastian (Black Butler), but it's still a great fantasy. No real woman can be as shameless and maintain a physique like Echidna's (Queen's Blade), but dang, it's fun watching her bounce around ridiculously in combat

I see fanservice like chocolate cake; some people don't like it, and you can't live off chocolate cake alone. Knowing that doesn't change the fact that to me, it tastes nice.

Hmm let me re- think that one. I don't fundamently have a problem with all fan service, although it's true I don't personally enjoy any of it. I suppose more mature shows that are just literally fan service for the sake of silly fan service, those kind of shows I guess have there place. But what I do have a problem with is when it is inserted into shows that are primarily aimed or popular with children, this seems to have become very common place in such shows in recent years (as far as I was aware anyway).

But yeah personally the fan service cake doesn't taste too good to me, as I just don't find particularly erotic or entertaining. But I suppose I can see it from your point too, and I guess it can be funny in a kind of un-intentional way.

I agree with that part (for both genders). There should be a healthy variety of shows with normal guys/girls in as well (even playing devil's advocate, if every show is fanservice then it's no longer shocking and fun!). For obviously silly shows I don't think it's a problem that every female has watermelon breasts and every guy is gorgeous, but for realistic shows I like to see realistic designs. There are plenty of the latter type around (Hourou Musuko was lovely for this and presented a number of great role models for normal people) but there does seem to be a bit of a fad at the moment to have as much fanservice as possible in all kinds of shows, replacing the actual plot.

The problem with boys having dubious role models seems worldwide as well but somehow people don't worry about it as much. When I read vintage [US] comics it always surprised me how many ads for bodybuilding services and products were in amongst what I took to be lighthearted fantasy superhero stories. Given the age of the readers of a lot of those comics it seemed like a bit of a low blow.

When I was growing up, I had no role models in particular, but I would imagine most kids look to real people for guidance more than caricatures. Therefore real people prancing around in their underwear showing off their plastic boobs and bling (i.e. most current pop music, television and talent shows in this country, it seems) always feel like a more pressing problem than fantasy shows.

R

Yep I do absolutely agree. I also have further rather more "out of the box"(but not stupid) conspiracy theories on the matter of the over sexualization we see so much of in the media these days (if the guy in the homeopathy thread thought that was a conspiracy theory if only he heard this one lol] but yeah... anyway I agree with you.

 

[ilmaestro]

I remember responding fairly succinctly to someone in some thread somewhere (should be easy to find with all that info to go on!) on this issue, my opinion is that as character design moves further towards gender-neutral (there are all sorts of arguments for why this is artistically desirable), your own personal bias (clearly likely to be culturally influenced, as mentioned) comes too heavily into your assessment of "what the character looks like", and it's nigh-on impossible to think about it objectively.

Also going to take this opportunity to piggy-back onto Rui's mention of Hourou Musuko and say again how generally amazing that show was.

 

[fabio de lunatico]

I didn't expect what was little more than a mischievous set-up for the hilarious spoilered ayase punchline to generate so much discussion. Go me!

What's this about increasingly gender-neutral character design, though? Explain, plz. I can't say I've noticed this trend in anything other than shoujo, where's it's been the case forever, but then I don't watch all that much anime compared to some.

On the subject of pretty boys, I'd go gay for Ren from Nana

 

[ilmaestro]

No, not in terms of increasingly gender-neutral on the whole (although this *is* an issue with "neo-shounen" and the like), I mean (for example) if you start with a specific character design that people would recognize as overtly male, and "move it" more towards a gender-neutral design, a lot of people's personal bias can cause them to uniformly start to think "gender-neutral = 'really' female".

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

Although if I was Japanese schoolgirl I know who I like: Ken Watanabe (as seen in the Last Samurai), thats one bonafide hunk of a man :wink: .

Who could resist?

 

[Vashdaman]

^
What a man!

No, not in terms of increasingly gender-neutral on the whole (although this *is* an issue with "neo-shounen" and the like), I mean (for example) if you start with a specific character design that people would recognize as overtly male, and "move it" more towards a gender-neutral design, a lot of people's personal bias can cause them to uniformly start to think "gender-neutral = 'really' female".

Well I think if a character looks gender neutral, say a male character, that would surely mean they are lacking masculine features. So I think that therefore would make them appear more feminine. Same with a gender neutral woman, if she's lacking feminine features she bound to appear more masculine. Also the clothes and style is often made to emphasize the the feminininity (is that a word?) of the male character. For example give a gender neutral male a nice shortly shaved hair cut, and I'll at least I'll be happy their trying!

 

[ilmaestro]

Well I think if a character looks gender neutral, say a male character, that would surely mean they are lacking masculine features. So I think that therefore would make them appear more feminine.

What you just did there was prove my point.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Girl Who Leapt though space #1's been knocked back to the 27th of July (from it's July 4th date)

 

[Vashdaman]

Well I think if a character looks gender neutral, say a male character, that would surely mean they are lacking masculine features. So I think that therefore would make them appear more feminine.

What you just did there was prove my point.

Oh