ID Cards - Xenophobia?

[SciFiBoy!]

as far as i can tell, the problem is that most of the public either dont vote or vote for a main party based on what the media tells them, and of course another problem is that the people who do vote, are generally people who like oppresive measures, like the elderly and the rich. i mean look at the EU elections, voter turnout was only 35% yet the BNP claimed a victory and that they had public support (they didnt, there actuall vote numbers were static, and even then still poor) and the Conservatives claimed the majourity of people wanted them in (again, wrong, of the 35% of people who did vote, only 28% voted for them)

essentially, blame the mass media and people who dont vote.

btw i did vote and i ignore much of what i hear from the media as its bs.

 

[ayase]

essentially, blame the mass media and people who dont vote.

Doesn't get you what you want though, does it?

The things you're saying make complete sense, but they don't give a way out of the problem, they simply describe it - which is basically the problem with Britain today. Everybody thinks they know what would be best but no-one is prepared to do anything in order to achieve it and simply blames others. Understand I'm not singling you out for criticism here, rather I'm criticising the entire nation.

 

[SciFiBoy!]

essentially, blame the mass media and people who dont vote.

Doesn't get you what you want though, does it?

The things you're saying make complete sense, but they don't give a way out of the problem, they simply describe it - which is basically the problem with Britain today. Everybody thinks they know what would be best but no-one is prepared to do anything in order to achieve it and simply blames others. Understand I'm not singling you out for criticism here, rather I'm criticising the entire nation.

oh i see, i forgot to mention that im applying to do a politics course in september didnt i, my bad, but yeah, i plan on doing Something, and of course youre right, if i wasnt hoping to do something with my ideas, i would be a fool.

 

[CitizenGeek]

There's only so far you can go with blaming other people (the media, people who don't vote) for politics not going your way. At the end of the day, people are independent acters and if they decide to not vote or to vote for a 'bad' party based on their ignorance then the blame falls mostly on them.

Everyone seems to hold the so-called "mass media" to unrealistically high standards. What's more, every side seems to think the media is biased against them. For example, in the U.S., the Right blames the media for the election of Obama while 4 years earlier the Left was blaming the same media for Bush's election. It's just a lazy, easy argument to say that the media is at fault for not being perfect in the absolute.

 

[shira]

There's only so far you can go with blaming other people (the media, people who don't vote) for politics not going your way. At the end of the day, people are independent acters and if they decide to not vote or to vote for a 'bad' party based on their ignorance then the blame falls mostly on them.

Everyone seems to hold the so-called "mass media" to unrealistically high standards. What's more, every side seems to think the media is biased against them. For example, in the U.S., the Right blames the media for the election of Obama while 4 years earlier the Left was blaming the same media for Bush's election. It's just a lazy, easy argument to say that the media is at fault for not being perfect in the absolute.

May I ask who you vote for, CG?

 

[ayase]

every side seems to think the media is biased against them.

Definately. The fact that the BBC is constantly being bombarded with abuse for being Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine, Pro-Labour, Pro-Tory, Pro-China, Pro-America, Pro-Democrat, Pro-Republican and just about every single opposing view you care to list proves to me beyond doubt that they are, in actual fact, the single most impartial news agency in the world. That's the major reason I'm happy to pay for them to continue their work.

And good luck in your attempts to change the world Sunday, you'll need it. :thumb:

 

[CitizenGeek]

I vote for the Irish Labour party, which hasn't totally sold out it's ideas like British Labour has (all the same, were I a UK citizen, I'd never, ever trust Tory scum after Thatcher and Major and them getting in the way of seemingly every movement of social progress in your country). I'm definitely very left-wing; I think the goverment can be a very good thing, I believe in achieving some form of social justice through redistributive policies, I believe that privatising important utilities and services like healthcare and internet provision is wrong, I believe that same-sex marriage and abortion should be legal, I believe in free education; the Irish Labour party supports all of this too. I disagree intensely with them over foreign affairs though. I hate how most Europeans are so complacent and unappreciative of their vast and hard-won freedoms and refuse to acknowledge the threat of radical Islam. I generally try to see the Palestine-Israel situation from Israel's standpoint too, which most on the Left seemingly frown upon.

And who do you vote for (or are you even old enough?) and why? :]

 

[SciFiBoy!]

every side seems to think the media is biased against them.

Definately. The fact that the BBC is constantly being bombarded with abuse for being Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine, Pro-Labour, Pro-Tory, Pro-China, Pro-America, Pro-Democrat, Pro-Republican and just about every single opposing view you care to list proves to me beyond doubt that they are, in actual fact, the single most impartial news agency in the world. That's the major reason I'm happy to pay for them to continue their work.

And good luck in your attempts to change the world Sunday, you'll need it. :thumb:

thanks, lol

 

[CitizenGeek]

Definately. The fact that the BBC is constantly being bombarded with abuse for being Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine, Pro-Labour, Pro-Tory, Pro-China, Pro-America, Pro-Democrat, Pro-Republican and just about every single opposing view you care to list proves to me beyond doubt that they are, in actual fact, the single most impartial news agency in the world. That's the major reason I'm happy to pay for them to continue their work.

Of course. I mean, let's not be naive and say there aren't any biased news sources at all. Of course there are, but with the exception of Rupert Murdoch's Fox News, none of them really try to pretend that they're entirely impartial and opinion is to be expected sometimes with news.

 

[shira]

And who do you vote for (or are you even old enough?) and why? :]

Not old enough.

I lean towards right wing, though.

(But no, i'd never vote tory's. lol.)

 

[ayase]

Going with the flow here, I'm giving serious thought to joining The UK Libertarian Party. They don't stand a chance in hell at the moment of course, but I think Libertarianism is becoming more appealing to people all the time. I honestly think a lot of the population would agree more with them than they do Labour or the Tories if only they knew there was a party out there with these policies. I didn't even know they existed until a week ago.

 

[SciFiBoy!]

I vote for the Irish Labour party, which hasn't totally sold out it's ideas like British Labour has (all the same, were I a UK citizen, I'd never, ever trust Tory scum after Thatcher and Major and them getting in the way of seemingly every movement of social progress in your country). I'm definitely very left-wing; I think the goverment can be a very good thing, I believe in achieving some form of social justice through redistributive policies, I believe that privatising important utilities and services like healthcare and internet provision is wrong, I believe that same-sex marriage and abortion should be legal, I believe in free education; the Irish Labour party supports all of this too. I disagree intensely with them over foreign affairs though. I hate how most Europeans are so complacent and unappreciative of their vast and hard-won freedoms and refuse to acknowledge the threat of radical Islam. I generally try to see the Palestine-Israel situation from Israel's standpoint too, which most on the Left seemingly frown upon.

And who do you vote for (or are you even old enough?) and why? :]

i voted for the Lib Dems in the EU election as theyre the most pro-EU party here, dont agree with them on many issues, but i do on Europe.

at the general its hard to say who im gonna vote for, certainly i like the Green party, but im a little hesitant about some of there policys too.

EU elections were the first time i was able to vote btw (im 20)

as for my views, theyre radical on many fronts i guess

im pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-equality, pro-nhs, pro-state education, anti-religon (in so much as where it interferes with politics, i have no problem with a religous person per say, but i think there views are antiquated and have no place in government affairs), pro-immigration, pro-nationalisation of the railways, pro-green policys, anti-nuclear, pro-electoral reform, anti-monarchy, anti-unelected house of lords, anti-fox hunting, pro-legalisation of less dangerous drugs, pro-nationalised banks or at the very least a heavily regulated financial sector

i think that covers most domestic policy, lol

foriegn policy wise, im anti-all non defensive wars, so no iraq or afghanistan, pro-downsizing military, anti-nuclear weapons

im an atheist like i said, i would imagine that would make my views on the israeli palestinian conflict quite obvious.

 

[SciFiBoy!]

Going with the flow here, I'm giving serious thought to joining The UK Libertarian Party. They don't stand a chance in hell at the moment of course, but I think Libertarianism is becoming more appealing to people all the time. I honestly think a lot of the population would agree more with them than they do Labour or the Tories if only they knew there was a party out there with these policies. I didn't even know they existed until a week ago.

the Libertarian party in the US hate anyone who isnt rich, so i hope theyre not like them!

 

[shira]

@Sundaymorningcall: If you plan to go into politics, I suggest you learn that it is spelt, Policies, not Policys.

(Sorry- I really couldn't help but point that out. Feel free to flame me in anger)

 

[SciFiBoy!]

@Sundaymorningcall: If you plan to go into politics, I suggest you learn that it is spelt, Policies, not Policys.

(Sorry- I really couldn't help but point that out. Feel free to flame me in anger)

lol, my bad, spelling im not soo good at!

 

[ayase]

Going with the flow here, I'm giving serious thought to joining The UK Libertarian Party. They don't stand a chance in hell at the moment of course, but I think Libertarianism is becoming more appealing to people all the time. I honestly think a lot of the population would agree more with them than they do Labour or the Tories if only they knew there was a party out there with these policies. I didn't even know they existed until a week ago.

the Libertarian party in the US hate anyone who isnt rich, so i hope theyre not like them!

You can read their manifesto on the site (there are sub headings in the menu too, it's not just that one page).

Probably the best way to sum up Libertarianism, and some people's confusions with it as an ideology:

"Among outside political watchers, some consider Libertarians to be conservative (primarily because of their support of the right to bear arms, their opposition to economic regulation, opposition to entitlement programs in pretty much all forms, and their views on taxes; while others consider them liberal because of their advocacy of a non-interventionist foreign policy, the repeal of drug prohibition, including restrictions on tobacco and alcohol, and the elimination of laws that interfere with private consensual acts (such as prostitution and gambling)."

Also, a few Wikipedia clicks later I think I found my true political position and a new blog to read. "I'd be delighted to live in a country where happily married gay couples had closets full of assault weapons." - Amen, brother.

 

[SciFiBoy!]

Going with the flow here, I'm giving serious thought to joining The UK Libertarian Party. They don't stand a chance in hell at the moment of course, but I think Libertarianism is becoming more appealing to people all the time. I honestly think a lot of the population would agree more with them than they do Labour or the Tories if only they knew there was a party out there with these policies. I didn't even know they existed until a week ago.

the Libertarian party in the US hate anyone who isnt rich, so i hope theyre not like them!

You can read their manifesto on the site (there are sub headings in the menu too, it's not just that one page).

Probably the best way to sum up Libertarianism, and some people's confusions with it as an ideology:

"Among outside political watchers, some consider Libertarians to be conservative (primarily because of their support of the right to bear arms, their opposition to economic regulation, opposition to entitlement programs in pretty much all forms, and their views on taxes; while others consider them liberal because of their advocacy of a non-interventionist foreign policy, the repeal of drug prohibition, including restrictions on tobacco and alcohol, and the elimination of laws that interfere with private consensual acts (such as prostitution and gambling)."

Also, a few Wikipedia clicks later I think I found my true political position and a new blog to read. "I'd be delighted to live in a country where happily married gay couples had closets full of assault weapons." - Amen, brother.

why on earth would you think legalising guns is a good idea? all that does is result in more murders, atleast with knife crime, theres a chance you may live, a gun is much more likely to kill you.

socially, i guess other than that, there ok.

the only people there economic policy wouldnt devestate are the rich, do i really need to explain why what you earn shouldnt decide wether you get a basic set of rights or not?

 

[CitizenGeek]

why on earth would you think legalising guns is a good idea? all that does is result in more murders, atleast with knife crime, theres a chance you may live, a gun is much more likely to kill you.

Eh, what exactly are you basing this on? Guns are illegal in the UK and yet it's still a more violent country than the U.S. The whole "more guns = more violence AUTOMATICALLY" is a silly, lazy conclusion to draw and I'm getting tired of it.

I don't like guns and I'd never own one but I don't think the government should be telling people they're not responsible enough to bear arms. The government should strictly regulate guns, of course, but an outright ban is something I'm struggling to justify.

im an atheist like i said, i would imagine that would make my views on the israeli palestinian conflict quite obvious.

I would seriously reconsider going into politics if you think your atheism has anything to do with that conflict. It's not a religious conflict. There's a religious aspect to it (as there always is) but it's centrally about race and land.

 

[SciFiBoy!]

why on earth would you think legalising guns is a good idea? all that does is result in more murders, atleast with knife crime, theres a chance you may live, a gun is much more likely to kill you.

Eh, what exactly are you basing this on? Guns are illegal in the UK and yet it's still a more violent country than the U.S. The whole "more guns = more violence AUTOMATICALLY" is a silly, lazy conclusion to draw and I'm getting tired of it.

I don't like guns and I'd never own one but I don't think the government should be telling people they're not responsible enough to bear arms. The government should strictly regulate guns, of course, but an outright ban is something I'm struggling to justify.

im an atheist like i said, i would imagine that would make my views on the israeli palestinian conflict quite obvious.

I would seriously reconsider going into politics if you think your atheism has anything to do with that conflict. It's not a religious conflict. There's a religious aspect to it (as there always is) but it's centrally about race and land.

not about religion?

why do you think Isreal was created and is backed by the US?

the land they take is also because there religion says they have rights to it, what do you think the zionist movement is about?

 

[ayase]

The simplest way for me to put it is that I think each individual is responsible for themselves, not for the wider community. If everyone was to take that responsibility seriously we'd have a hell of a lot less talking, a lot more doing and everyone would be better off because people's lives would be what they had made them. They couldn't take the easy option and blame others. Many people wouldn't be better off financially I'll give you that, but then the wealth of people in this country is a facade anyway. The government borrows to pay benefts, individuals borrow to buy luxuries - If consumption was taxed instead of income there would be real incentives to work, because you would lead a very basic existence if you didn't.

which brings me onto your "basic set of rights". Yes - food, shelter, healthcare and access to employment are basic rights. However, cars, plasma TV's, Sky+ and foriegn holidays aren't, contrary to the beliefs of a lot of Britons...

"It is not the business of government to make men virtuous or religious, or to preserve the fool from the consequences of his own folly. Government should be repressive no further than is necessary to secure liberty by protecting the equal rights of each from aggression on the part of others, and the moment governmental prohibitions extend beyond this line they are in danger of defeating the very ends they are intended to serve." – Henry George

WRT Guns, criminals can obtain guns now - they're illegal but what do they care? They use them to commit other illegal acts such as robbery and murder. So the police have guns to fight crime... Criminals have guns to commit crimes... The only people who can't have guns are law abiding members of the public. I'd use the same argument I would for drugs, that legalisation and regulation is far safer than creating a black market.