Elfen Lied

[Ninja Boy!]

I have to diagree with you ninja boy. The anime had some great qualitys to it hte art was great and some of the the action scenes where great. Also the fact at the start of the anime the character who you think will have a cute goody too shoes roll gets her head cut off and used as a bullet proof shield

Elfen Lied is a difficult one, like mentioned earlier on, you either like it or not.
one good thing i will say about this show is that it was 13 eps..any more... and well..........i guess nemphtis has alot to say if it were to continue with any more episodes :lol:

 

[Sy]

I can't believe there are people that actually want another series set after the events of the anime (how would that work?). There was actually a bonus episode set at about 11 that for some reason ADV didn't licence, which I consider rather odd because it cleared up some dangling plot threads.

The main problem with some of the 'shock' is that it just came across as kind of goofy. Take the very first scene of the first episode, the gore wasn't exactly brutal and the sound effects just made it almost cartoonish. Sometimes less is more when you want to shock. Could have done without some of the fanservice as well. It's not an amazing series but for all it's faults for me it makes up for them with an excellently eerie soundtrack, a wonderful atmosphere, some nice animation and some decent underlying themes.

 

[arthur_webb]

I've been meaning to watch Elfen Lied for ages now; I'll probably get around to buying the DVDs soon enough.

Generally, I tend to watch slice-of-life, comedy, romance and sci-fi anime (although not mech), and so I'm really lacking in the brute-force heart-drenching eye-popping section. I'm figuring on watching Elfen Lied and Gunslinger Girl to make up for the lack, and then plough through She: THe Ultimate Weapon immediately afterwards to leak out whatever's left of my soul in teardrops by then.

 

[hopeful_monster]

Definitely in the 'like it' side of the debate, mainly due to the fact that the characters have clear motives, and remain true to form. If however you don't connect with them i can see how this show would bomb badly. If you can't empathise with for Lucy and her lashing out at the world, feel sorry for Nana and how her treatment has forced her obsession with her 'father', and even pity Kouta and Yuka for his mental break down and her not really being able to coming to terms with it, the show doesn't have much to offer. Both gore, violence and harem's have been done better.

 

[Ark]

It has cousins making out, what the hell else do you want? That scene was done so well to.

I’ve not come across a series that seems to polarise opinions so much.

Uh.... Eva?

Seriously though, even as I like the series I do believe that taking the Moe/Harem route stopped it from being a great anime instead of just being above average. It really had some great themes that weren't used as well as they could have been.

 

[hopeful_monster]

I’ve not come across a series that seems to polarise opinions so much.

Uh.... Eva?

SECONDED. :roll:

 

[harkins]

I’ve not come across a series that seems to polarise opinions so much.

Uh.... Eva?

I thought everyone loves EVA... don't they? Especially the final two episodes!!

As for the ending of Elfen Lied, I was initially distraught by it's none conclusive ending. However, I have come to accept it and am now rather glad of it.

More episodes I can live without but it would have been nice if the manga had been licensed over here. Apart from continuing the story I read that it differs from the anime in places too.

 

[Warmaster]

Elfen Lied is a funny one. Generally I think it is a great story, flawed by the occasional fanservice (which goes completely against the run of things, as Ark said it does kill the suspension of disbelieve, and more importantly, the mood of things) but generally works pretty well.

However I cannot give it unrestrained praise because deep inside I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that a race/species is unredemably evil (or mass murdering in this case). It just does not settle with me. I mean it happens all the time (Orcs etc) but here, where the diclonius are rather more 'characters' than 'things' it just leaves me with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Of course, I get the feeling that was the entire idea however, but still...

All the same, it is quite an adventurious series in places, and the 'theology' behind it gives it quite a lot of depth for what it is, even though it is far too short in all. Pretty good in all though.

 

[Sy]

Seriously though, even as I like the series I do believe that taking the Moe/Harem route stopped it from being a great anime instead of just being above average. It really had some great themes that weren't used as well as they could have been.

I can agree with that.

 

[Arbalest]

Since i haven't really been able to get my hands on the final volume of the DVD's i can't really say what i thought about it overall, but it was a decent enough series for the most part. I'm guessing the end of the series left it in a way that it isn't open for another series? I'll probably be wrong.
The manga itself is 12 volumes in total and from what i can remember, the anime only covers around 6 volumes of it, so they could have continued the story, but i think from reading a lot more of it, i can see why the didn't.

 

[hopeful_monster]

However I cannot give it unrestrained praise because deep inside I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that a race/species is unredemably evil (or mass murdering in this case). It just does not settle with me. I mean it happens all the time (Orcs etc) but here, where the diclonius are rather more 'characters' than 'things' it just leaves me with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Of course, I get the feeling that was the entire idea however, but still...

I thought the point was that they weren't, but due the abuse thrown at them (physical and mental) they where driven to it. Apart from Nana none even had parent figures to teach them right and wrong. Nana did, and was somewhat normal and well balance (for a kid who had been totrure almost ever day of her life). So like kids if they where hurt they hurt who ever hurt them. Problem was with their powers the reciprocation was often fatal.

 

[Ark]

I thought everyone loves EVA... don't they?

Well, the elite do.

However I cannot give it unrestrained praise because deep inside I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that a race/species is unredemably evil (or mass murdering in this case). It just does not settle with me. I mean it happens all the time (Orcs etc) but here, where the diclonius are rather more 'characters' than 'things' it just leaves me with a bitter taste in the mouth.

You do know our ancestors probably wiped out our biped cousins the Neanderthals? Not that different from what could have potentially happened in Elfen Lied.

I can agree with that.

I'm glad you do

 

[Warmaster]

However I cannot give it unrestrained praise because deep inside I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that a race/species is unredemably evil (or mass murdering in this case). It just does not settle with me. I mean it happens all the time (Orcs etc) but here, where the diclonius are rather more 'characters' than 'things' it just leaves me with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Of course, I get the feeling that was the entire idea however, but still...

I thought the point was that they weren't, but due the abuse thrown at them (physical and mental) they where driven to it. Apart from Nana none even had parent figures to teach them right and wrong. Nana did, and was somewhat normal and well balance (for a kid who had been totrure almost ever day of her life). So like kids if they where hurt they hurt who ever hurt them. Problem was with their powers the reciprocation was often fatal.

It may hint at that at times, but several times IIRC it is said to the parents 'the child will kill you before it is X years old' and many other times similar things are said, hinted etc, and even if Nana is an exception, 99.9999% of a race/species being psychopathic is basically the same as 100% in real terms.

It is true it is not clear cut, but that is the point. Basically every one of the diclonius is slightly unballanced (understandably in most cases admitedly) but an abused human child doesn't instantly become a murderer - and to use a dangerous analogy - all the repression and murder in the second world war did not cause even 1% of those oppressed to turn out like that.

What gets me though is that we are made to feel sympathy for the diclonius, then they do something terrible, but later we are made to feel sympathy again. It doesn't ring true, and deep inside it just doesn't work for me on a philisophical level (Yes i bring personal philosophy into anime!!!)

I do admire the series for its no nonsense take on the matter, even if i do not, and cannot agree with it. (though even that is diluted by the 'fanservice bits' - so again it is 'good' often 'very good' but not 'brilliant'

 

[Warmaster]

You do know our ancestors probably wiped out our biped cousins the Neanderthals? Not that different from what could have potentially happened in Elfen Lied.

Yeah, but did every single one of the Cro Mangon's have the urge to kill the Neanderthals? I can basically say No to that. (s

(and besides it is generally assumed that the Neanderthals died out due to competion, not conflict - the Cro Mangon's basically got more food and quicker, which reduced the amounts of Neanderthals, allowing more Cro Mangons etc - rather like what happened with the natives in the americas. Only a very small proportion were directly killed by settlers, it is the enviromental/background factors which did most of the destruction)

[End Major digression]

 

[hopeful_monster]

It may hint at that at times, but several times IIRC it is said to the parents 'the child will kill you before it is X years old' and many other times similar things are said, hinted etc, and even if Nana is an exception, 99.9999% of a race/species being psychopathic is basically the same as 100% in real terms.

How often before any child reaches X yrs old will it have a temper tantrum and throw the toys out of the pram? Dozens of times a year, maybe more. Now imaging the child can throw the toys with enought force for them to punch through a wall or at the speed of a bullet. Of course the parent are going to get killed.

Basically every one of the diclonius is slightly unballanced (understandably in most cases admitedly) but an abused human child doesn't instantly become a murderer - and to use a dangerous analogy - all the repression and murder in the second world war did not cause even 1% of those oppressed to turn out like that.

This again is more due the availability of murder weapons, and the wisdom of how to use them. their vectors can cut through a human like knives through butter, most humans can't do that. Attach light sabres to 4 yr old kids and trust me the blood will flow. Also the people in WW2 for the most part had some 'normal' upbringings. Parents who told them what was right and what was wrong. Lucy was an orphan who was bullied and even the carers thought she was a freak (and she new they did) and was subjected to experiments 'worse than torture' as was Number 03 and Nana. These conditions and upbringing are not conducive to the raising of well adjusted people. Out of the 4 cases one is relatively sane Nana. Lucy and Number 03, are shown to be able to deterimine friend from foe so are somewhat sane just bent hurting those who hurt them. Lucy may not have like competing for Kohta's affection with Yuka, but she didn't kill her. Neither did she kill Mayu during her fight with Nana she just shoved her out of the way. Number 03 didn't immediately kill Kurama who showed her some kindness (thought can't be sure what would have happened if it wasn't for the bullet). Mariko was the closest to insane, but since was in isolation from as soon as she was born that's not surprising.
So out a VERY small sample 1 out of 4 is utterly insane 2 have problems, and 1 turned out alright.
Now lets look at the humans ... Bando,well maybe not the best place to start... Kurama well he only tried to kill his daughter.... Mayu, poor mite... Kohta.... well you get the picture.

 

[Warmaster]

It may hint at that at times, but several times IIRC it is said to the parents 'the child will kill you before it is X years old' and many other times similar things are said, hinted etc, and even if Nana is an exception, 99.9999% of a race/species being psychopathic is basically the same as 100% in real terms.

How often before any child reaches X yrs old will it have a temper tantrum and throw the toys out of the pram? Dozens of times a year, maybe more. Now imaging the child can throw the toys with enought force for them to punch through a wall or at the speed of a bullet. Of course the parent are going to get killed.

I'm not sure that argument works. Any species where a small accident by a child will result in the death of its guardians will becomes extinct VERY quickly. No matter how deadly they are it is an evolutionary dead end if a child is able to kill so nonchilantly that its sole means of food, shelter, protection are killed by accident! :twisted:

Of course you could argue the only reason the diclonius exist is to wipe out humans, (and then if your argument holds then they will die out themselves probably quickly) then again we return to the 'all evil' argument which is disagree with! catch 22 time

 

[Chaz]

The Diclonius issue is a natural thing for them to kill humans. Remember the explanation with the kid vs humans, then the dog? It had no problems killing off/attacking humans, but other cretures are more threatening to Diclonius.
This is also true whether or not the kid was abused or not. They live for a certain time in "normality" and then at X years old, they just snap.
They do snap though rather than throw a tantrum. Tantrums are not getting what you want and protesting against it. Diclonius have a sinister look in their eyes and dont care what they do to get what they desire.

Diclonius are born to "irradicate" the humans, and become the new kings/queens of the food chain. This was estimated in 5 years of the series.

The thing I find interesting is after all the humans are irradicated, would the Diclonius turn on each other? Mariko and Lucy showed no mercy to any victim (ok, Lucy made a few warnings to Nana, but... well, you know...)

 

[Liquid Skin]

The thing I find interesting is after all the humans are irradicated, would the Diclonius turn on each other? Mariko and Lucy showed no mercy to any victim (ok, Lucy made a few warnings to Nana, but... well, you know...)

Hmm an interesting idea. I've only seen the series (will probably get the manga when i have the time/money) so i can't comment on things that happened outside of it but the Dicloniises seemed to be loners by nature, at least in the case of Lucy who is the oldest of the group. Of course we come back to the nature vs nurture argument over their behaviour and each Diclo has a pretty diverse upbringing, Lucy lives in the orphanage, being bullied and treated as a freak by her teachers. She is apparently "betrayed" by her first friend and her next one subsequently dies at the hands of her captors and is finally shut away to take part in cruel experiments. Nana similarly is treated as an animal but slowly becomes obsessed with the father figure (who does mirror her affections admittedly) and Number 03 is closed off entirely from the world with only a disembodied voice for companionship

Overall i'd say that the Diclo are more or less "human" in their behaviour. When they are shunned and shut off from the world they become bitter and twisted (a la Number 03) when they are given parents they find compassion and when they find a love they discover the intense emotions (both good and bad) that arise from it. Remember that this is fiction - it deals in stereotypes and so it has to give "reasons" for someone to be so messed up (at least modern series, audiences demand more than simply - "he's just evil" now). The recurring theme in Elfen Lied is after all the past and how it shapes who you are.

 

[hopeful_monster]

I'm not sure that argument works. Any species where a small accident by a child will result in the death of its guardians will becomes extinct VERY quickly. No matter how deadly they are it is an evolutionary dead end if a child is able to kill so nonchilantly that its sole means of food, shelter, protection are killed by accident! :twisted:

Of course you could argue the only reason the diclonius exist is to wipe out humans, (and then if your argument holds then they will die out themselves probably quickly) then again we return to the 'all evil' argument which is disagree with! catch 22 time

It actually works quite well if you picture teh Diclonius we see as true 'hopeful monsters'. A macro mutalion where the offspring are entirely different to thier parents. Imaging, if you will, the successive generations of Diclonius, parent Diclonius would be able to look after their offspring without fear of dying, projectiles could be defelcted by thier own stronger, and further reaching vectors. Also they can switch off the vectors if the kids is throwning major hissy fit.
Also Diclonius do seem to mautre faster than humans physicall and possibly mentally as well. Lucy was able to survive by herself form about age 10 to 15 as runaway, Nana looks 12-14 buty is actually 6 yrs old.

 

[MaxonTreik]

It's popular because it ticks a lot of boxes.

Gore? Check.
Nudity? Check.
Too high production values? Check.
Shallow character development? Check.

I thought everyone loves EVA... don't they? Especially the final two episodes!!

Putting aside the fact that the last two episodes are made of epic fail, the rest of the series is average.