A not so happy Halloween...

[Asdrubael]

If guns were legal in this country I would get one just because I like guns and would want a silver desert eagle. A .44 and maybe later a .50 though I think its kick would be too strong for me to use effectively.

Having said that I don't think we should have guns. I have heard the argument that criminals will get guns anyway so its only the lawful people that can't. However from friends in America I've heard gun crime and accidental shootings in friends and family are on the news a lot. A friend from Canada told me the contrast between our news and American news in regards to gun crime is immediately noticeable.

I put this together with the fact that American school kids have drills in the school in what to do if an intruder with a gun is coming. This is in the same way that we have fire drills. Hide, do not be visible through windows, that sort of thing.

Also most of my cousins are in the army (one is in Afghan right now) and they tell me they know people in the army that they would not want to be able to own a gun in normal life. When experienced users are telling you this you've got to take notice.

We have gun crime but it is very small in comparison to countries which legally allow guns.

 

[Asdrubael]

Sorry for the double post but I wanted to break up the text for easier reading.

I do think laws on protecting your property and your person should be revised. You don't need a gun to do this but you do need the law on your side. You do need to know you won't be prosecuted for fighting back, not just in self defence but also in protecting your property/possessions if you want to.

 

[ayase]

The US is almost always used as the point of reference for countries which allow guns, but other countries also allow them and have far less problems. Every man is Switzerland is given the choice of keeping their assault rifle after their compulsory military service, yet their gun crime rate is next to nothing! People in Switzerland are more likely to use their gun on themselves than on anyone else. Again, we must presume the difference is education - the Swiss are trained in the use of their weapons in a military environment, the Americans aren't.

I'd have a Walther P99, personally.

 

[Asdrubael]

The US is almost always used as the point of reference for countries which allow guns, but other countries also allow them and have far less problems. Every man is Switzerland is given the choice of keeping their assault rifle after their compulsory military service, yet their gun crime rate is next to nothing! People in Switzerland are more likely to use their gun on themselves than on anyone else. Again, we must presume the difference is education - the Swiss are trained in the use of their weapons in a military environment, the Americans aren't.

I'd have a Walther P99, personally.

Everyone has their own tastes. Wasn't the Walther P99 the gun Mireille nearly always used in Noir. I don't know why I'm drawn to desert eagle really.

Yep, I will admit I'm comparing almost solely to America, which by not taking into account other countries, does weaken my comparison. Does Germany allow guns? I never hear of gun crime there but there was that school shooting there just last year or maybe the year before or earlier this year.

 

[shira]

The US is almost always used as the point of reference for countries which allow guns, but other countries also allow them and have far less problems. Every man is Switzerland is given the choice of keeping their assault rifle after their compulsory military service, yet their gun crime rate is next to nothing! People in Switzerland are more likely to use their gun on themselves than on anyone else. Again, we must presume the difference is education - the Swiss are trained in the use of their weapons in a military environment, the Americans aren't.

I'd have a Walther P99, personally.

Lets bare in mind Cultural differences and attitudes here though. It's all well saying "It works in Switzerland so it will work here!".

All this talk about difference in education isn't that easy to change either. A massive overhaul in our education system would be trouble.

Also, let's remember the difference in Laws between England & Wales and Switzerland. Do you know what the Laws are regarding defending your property?

And finally, let us compare the Justice System as a whole. In England & Wales (I can't vouch for Scotland, but i'm positive their the same.) we have an adversarial system. This means criminals believe they will get away with crimes. I know much of Europe (Such as Spain, for example) use an Inquisitorial System. You could argue that a change in our Legal System would mean that the Prosecution and Defense are both looking at Evidence to convict the guilty party, not just their own party.

In a related note to this; big gangs will often have lots of money. They can afford the best Barristers money can buy, they can bribe and threaten the Jury. Even if we could defend ourselves with guns, they'd still be able to get away with, because their powerful.

These are but a few things to think about however, as right now, i've gotta get ready for College. I may expand on this later if you show interest in what i'm talking about.

 

[Tachi]

If guns where legal...i'd shoot the tires of the bastards who either cut me up, or sit in the wrong lane and block the lane their in until they are allowed into my lane that i'm in. Sorry you can bloody well wait like everyone else! and whilst your at it...wait in the right bloody lane! And the white van men who are right up everyone elses arses 24/7.

 

[Mutsumi]

No, we don't. The Kira / Judge Dredd approach to fighting crime is no good because it only stops the crimes from happening through fear of reprisal. It doesn't tackle the causes of crime at all.

Putting criminals in prison doesn't tackle the causes either by that logic.

The cause of crime is the person who commits the crime. They make that choice, & therefore must suffer the consequences. Kira would bring peace to the world by demonstrating that justice cannot be escaped by the guilty.

 

[chaos]

In my ideal world the police would wield great power & be free from corruption because there would be another organisation policing the police to ensure that.

Are there internal affairs in the police here?

The cause of most social ills is simple, not enough good education, not enough people paying attention to education, or not enough intelligence to understand it.

I couldn't have said better.

All this talk about difference in education isn't that easy to change either. A massive overhaul in our education system would be trouble.

It's not about being easy, it's about doing it anyway.

Things like lack of education, lack of perspective in life and I beleive that even consumism are the triggers for crime.

 

[shira]

All this talk about difference in education isn't that easy to change either. A massive overhaul in our education system would be trouble.

It's not about being easy, it's about doing it anyway.

Things like lack of education, lack of perspective in life and I beleive that even consumism are the triggers for crime.

It would be a very long process. Also, a big change in education can effectively make students like myself and the current generations qualifications useless. They can't just make the school day longer and teach people 'basic morals'. Long School days means less attention paid, so they'd need to cut down on lessons. Less History, Maths, English, Science, etc. and more "Morals", "General Aptitude", whatever you want to call it. This will change the system dramatically, which makes different peoples qualifications mean more or less. These changes need to be gradual, and you need to be able to make sure people are actually going to listen.

Morals about how to act in certain situations are more on parents to teach. Cupboard-Love is more of a myth than a reality, and truth is most young kids see their parents as Role-Models until the age of 7-13- This has been proven by many Psychologists, and again, if people want to research this themselves, i'm happy to give you the names of these (I've got all these studies in my Textbooks and Psychology notes )

We also need to make sure that these morals comply with the Law. It's pointless saying "If you see someone being beaten up stop it happening by whatever way possible", because if the person who was assaulting the other person is badly injured due to this Moral, the child who has had this moral drilled into them will then be prosecuted for assault. We need to teach morals that comply with the Law, and tighten up other aspects within the UK as a whole so that Justice is served.

For example, if someone is being assaulted, it's best to teach how to do a Citizen's-Arrest, or just to report to the Police. It's pointless putting your life in danger for someone you've never met. If it's reported to the Police and there are witnesses, in theory the assailant will be Prosecuted and get a prison sentence or fine - The issue here is making sure the CPS actually Prosecute and the Police get evidence.

My point in all of the above is that, it's not just education or Laws that need changing- it's the UK as a whole. Changing education won't do that much, nor will making minor changes to the Law. And above all, large changes to the Legal System or Education System will just cause chaos. What can make a difference though is pressuring parents to ensure their child is taught morals from a young age. Children just need more time being taught by their parents. The problem with that though is that, the alarming amount of under-age pregnancies mean that these parents have no morals worth passing on, anyway.

However, i'm just presenting theories and shooting them down- even things I believe would work. It's a horribly confusing cycle.

Related to Under-age pregnancies though- it's quite worrying really. It's proven that unless a secure attachment is formed with the primary care-giver (normally the Mother) then the child will struggle to hold down close and trusting relationships during adolescent years and adulthood. The massive amount of under-age pregnancies (which will mean during the time the mother has to be sitting GCSE's) she wont be around to form this bond. This will lead to an insecure relationship between mother and child, leading to a large percentage of the next generation being, well, social recluses who will struggle to hold down relationships. I wonder what this will lead to in the future. (I confess, in some cases, this doesn't hold true. The "Earned Security" state where adolescent and adult relationships go very well but, with this amount of people already insecure in the next-generation, it's hard to believe they will be able to get to this level of "earned security")

Sorry if I rambled on here. It probably makes little sense. I've just got back from college and need a coffee...

 

[chaos]

It makes perfect sense.

I still believe it's up to education, but what might be confusing is my usage of the term. By education I mean not only knowledge, but also values.

Also, I don't mean that any changes made must be overnight, also, I don't believe that changes to the education system would render current qualifications invalid. They would just gradually be replaced by the newer ones over time.

 

[mangaman74]

How about compulsory enlisting criminals into the Armed Forces?

I am talking about crimes involving murder, manslaughter, sex crimes.

Work out the length of time the criminal would serve and instead of going to prison they have to enlist into the army for the duration.

Send them to places like Afghanistan to fight. Don't give them any leave until their sentence is up.

 

[Voddas]

How about compulsory enlisting criminals into the Armed Forces?

Their hard enough to control in a prison, never mind being in another country and armed. It would never happen.

 

[chaos]

^ simple. They would desert.

 

[ayase]

No, we don't. The Kira / Judge Dredd approach to fighting crime is no good because it only stops the crimes from happening through fear of reprisal. It doesn't tackle the causes of crime at all.

Putting criminals in prison doesn't tackle the causes either by that logic.

Prison doesn't tackle the causes of crime by any logic, it's a punishment which it is increasingly admitted doesn't even work. If people are sent to prision for a minor offence they're more likely to re-offend than if they are given a community sentance! I'm not saying people shouldn't be punished for their crimes (far from it), but it would be better if they didn't commit the crime in the first place, or even if after commiting one crime they didn't re-offend.

All this talk about difference in education isn't that easy to change either. A massive overhaul in our education system would be trouble.

It's not about being easy, it's about doing it anyway.

Exactly. What was it JFK said? "We choose to... do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard"? whatever happened to that attitude in our leaders and our people?

@mangaman - Putting people in the armed forces who are murderers and sex offenders doesn't sound like the greatest idea to me. Wouldn't you just end up with a lot of My Lai massacres on your hands? Make them work, certainly - but dangerous criminals need to be seperated from the civilian population. Prison colonies were a good idea, I don't know why we ever stopped. Stick prisoners on a remote uninhabited island (Britain has loads of these) toss them a few packets of seeds and some tools and leave them to it. They'd have to learn how to live and survive and would soon find out what it was like to live without laws (you could even pay the guards with proceeds from filming it as a reality TV show).

Additional: I should add though that I'm all for people (male and female, I'm all for equality) doing some kind of compulsory National Service like many other countries have (but not conscription, I don't think people should be forced to fight in wars). It may well be the kind of thing which would teach the people who need it some respect and discipline. It may even help cut crime.

 

[mangaman74]

send them all one way to Austrailia :lol:

 

[shira]

All this talk about difference in education isn't that easy to change either. A massive overhaul in our education system would be trouble.

It's not about being easy, it's about doing it anyway.

Exactly. What was it JFK said? "We choose to... do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard"? whatever happened to that attitude in our leaders and our people?

Please read my whole post. It outlines why I don't think it would really work. I did make two quite large posts for your reading pleasure Ayase

 

[ayase]

I did read 'em man! You're right that it is society as whole that needs changing - but I still think education reform has to be the starting point. After all, the people who make up society all go through education of some kind and that's generally the time at which our beliefs and ideas are formed. Big changes to the education system and the law will cause chaos? I don't happen to think so, it's been done before (The current Comprehensive System is less than sixty years old) and it can be done again - and in a way, so what if it does cause chaos? If we're going to change society a few eggs will need to be broken along the way.

 

[Mutsumi]

No, we don't. The Kira / Judge Dredd approach to fighting crime is no good because it only stops the crimes from happening through fear of reprisal. It doesn't tackle the causes of crime at all.

Putting criminals in prison doesn't tackle the causes either by that logic.

Prison doesn't tackle the causes of crime by any logic, it's a punishment which it is increasingly admitted doesn't even work. If people are sent to prision for a minor offence they're more likely to re-offend than if they are given a community sentance! I'm not saying people shouldn't be punished for their crimes (far from it), but it would be better if they didn't commit the crime in the first place, or even if after commiting one crime they didn't re-offend.

If they know the punishment & fear it enough, they will not commit the crime. If they commit the crime, it means either the punishment did not convey the required amount of fear, or that the criminal was simply retarded.

 

[chaos]

If they know the punishment & fear it enough, they will not commit the crime. If they commit the crime, it means either the punishment did not convey the required amount of fear, or that the criminal was simply retarded.

Far from real. Punishment is pretty harsh in Brazil, but crimes levels are high nonetheless. Be hard on criminals without solving the social issues that causes crime (unemployment, low level of education, consumism*, etc) and you're just creating a hot pressure cauldron, ready to explode at the slightest of things.


* I use consumism, because if you keep on pounding at people's head that they need the lastest sneakers to be cool, they will beleive it. And if they are not cool and becoes ostracized, they might simply start to steal said sneakers. I've seen this happen before and to the point it lead to murder.

 

[ayase]

If they know the punishment & fear it enough, they will not commit the crime. If they commit the crime, it means either the punishment did not convey the required amount of fear, or that the criminal was simply retarded.

Scaring people into obeying the law is the kind of thing the Stasi did. Once you put that kind of system in place for one crime, it's there for all crimes. Remember some laws are a lot more ridiculous than others and you might not agree with them (I know there are a lot of laws I don't agree with). Never mind any new laws which might come into force once you had a system like that.

As chaos stated above, Increasing the penalties doesn't stop people commiting the crimes. If anything, it just makes more people hate the government and puts an even bigger strain on the country's finances. Not everybody is brought up well enough to respect other people's lives and property. Some people live in poverty. To say the point at which to tackle their problems is by punishing them after they commit a crime is short sighted. Justice has been done yes, but the life of the person who commited the crime hasn't changed - as I said, many petty criminals who are sent to jail re-offend.

As an example, in your system what would be done with a petty thief who kept re-offending, but his crimes never got any worse? Prison the first time, presumably. What next, a longer sentence? That costs money, and we'd soon start needing a lot of new prisons... What if he still won't stop? The only thing worse than prison is some kind of physical punishment, and before you know it you'd be executing handbag thieves. I really don't want to live in that kind of society.