A discussion on "moe"

ayase

ayase

State Alchemist
ilmaestro said:
Gall Force, awesome as it is, is the prototypical moe show. :p
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Er, did you watch a different Gall Force to the one I watched? Rumy was cute and Pony was pretty helpless but Rabby? Eluza? Lufy? Girls who are able to defend themselves - and with weapons, can't possibly de described as 'moe'

Gallant-019.jpg

Moe moe kyun!

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Bah. Call it decade bias then. Things are probably the same as they ever were but I just prefer the style of anything from the 80s far more to today. Character design, hand drawn animation, voice acting... music, cars, fashion, attitudes. Things were better back when we had to live with the specter of atomic holocaust. Terrorism just doesn't cut it.
 
ayase said:
Bah. Call it decade bias then. Things are probably the same as they ever were but I just prefer the style of anything from the 80s far more to today. Character design, hand drawn animation, voice acting... music, cars, fashion, attitudes. Things were better back when we had to live with the specter of atomic holocaust. Terrorism just doesn't cut it.
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sorta in agreement (more of an early-mid 90's fan of art style myself), the fashion and the music were totally awesome, stuff like "We Gotta Power" was just amazing
 
ayase said:
ilmaestro said:
Gall Force, awesome as it is, is the prototypical moe show. :p
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Er, did you watch a different Gall Force to the one I watched? Rumy was cute and Pony was pretty helpless but Rabby? Eluza? Lufy? Girls who are able to defend themselves - and with weapons, can't possibly de described as 'moe'
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Moe-tacular? Moe-riffic? These should do instead. :p

I'm sure no-one would disagree that Hinagiku from Hayate no Gotoku! (to use a completely random example) is, to varying extents depending on your viewpoint, a moe character. But she can defend herself, and with weapons. You can have characters with moe properties without them being totally 100% only designed to sell huggable pillow covers and proliferate doujinshi. Gall Force in its entire concept is designed as the 80s version of a moe alternative to the more "manly" shows of the 70s and early 80s.
 
If you mean it had quite a feminine feel then yeah, I'd agree with that. It was a series feauturing an entirely female race where the women behaved like actual women. Yeah, there was more caring about each other's feelings and a hint of sappiness, but I put that down to the fact that... actually that's probably what the universe would be like without men.

'Moe' to me means cute, innocent characters which stir protective feelings in the audience. They're the helpless sweet ones, either young girls or grown women with the minds of young girls. I don't think that applies to many Gall Force characters, at least no more than the average series from that time would include.
 
That's not really where I see "moe" as it pertains to anime overall. "moe" is whatever character trait attracts crazy anime fans in that way to the female characters of a series that are then used to sell associated goods, DVDs, Lemon and Lime soda, figures, whatever. A characters "moe" properties can be anything from being a cute "little sister" character, to wearing shimapan, to being the Student Council President.

As I say, Hina is definitely a "moe" character. Saber from F/SN is probably a "moe" character. They can be physically strong and still bring about the same feeling of "moe".

Either way, I'm not entirely sure how this went so far off topic. ^^; To sum up, we all agree that if you like Gall Force, you are responsible for everything from Tenchi Muyo's Sasami, to K-ON! and beyond. :p
 
This is AUKN. Sooner or later, everything goes off-topic. That's part of it's charm. ;)

ilmaestro said:
That's not really where I see "moe" as it pertains to anime overall. "moe" is whatever character trait attracts crazy anime fans in that way to the female characters of a series that are then used to sell associated goods, DVDs, Lemon and Lime soda, figures, whatever.
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Well that's certainly never how I've understood the term. Any character trait of a female character which attracts fans? Wouldn't that mean that Revy would be 'moe' by being a kick-ass tough chick? In fact, wouldn't that make every popular female character 'moe'? Isn't that just called a character's 'appeal?' I've always understood 'moe' as being a particular kind of appeal, that which I outlined above.

ilmaestro said:
To sum up, we all agree that if you like Gall Force, you are responsible for everything from Tenchi Muyo's Sasami, to K-ON! and beyond. :p
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Now I know you're just winding me up. Perhaps you have been all along... >_>
 
ayase, in order:

1) Heh, indeed. ^_^

2) No, I'm saying you're right about the way people feel towards "moe" characters, but that that feeling doesn't have to be brought on by them being meek and childish.

3) lol, not alllll along... ^_^ But yes, then. I like try to keep things light-hearted, so that everyone knows that if I come across as less than pleasant in other parts of my post, it's by accident rather than because I'm actually trying to be.

Jayme: we just discussed this to some extent, but being tsundere is also considered a moe trait. :p

I don't like that people try to pin "moe" down too much. You only know if a character is "moe" on a personal level, once you see them. You can't just "make" a moe character by making them "(insert adjective here)".
 
The term "moe", like the term "hentai" (pervert anime lol), has taken on its own meaning in the West. My understanding of the term is that it's protective feelings held by by the viewer and therefore individual characters can't be "moe" themselves. Some possess characteristics designed to elicit those responses--these I call "moe-bait"--but it's really in the eye of the beholder. Someone may actually feel "moe" over Revy because she's had a tough upbringing and they believe that her psychotic behaviour is just a defence mechanism. Not me, though =P

This discussion may be off topic, but it's far more interesting than the Winter season innit
 
fabricatedlunatic said:
The term "moe", like the term "hentai" (pervert anime lol), has taken on its own meaning in the West. My understanding of the term is that it's protective feelings held by by the viewer and therefore individual characters can't be "moe" themselves. Some possess characteristics designed to elicit those responses--these I call "moe-bait"--but it's really in the eye of the beholder.
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That makes sense. I still maintain there are few characters in Gall Force who would elicit those feelings in viewers, unless, as you say:

fabricatedlunatic said:
Someone may actually feel "moe" over Revy because she's had a tough upbringing and they believe that her psychotic behaviour is just a defence mechanism.
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Which ties into:

ilmaestro said:
I'm saying you're right about the way people feel towards "moe" characters, but that that feeling doesn't have to be brought on by them being meek and childish.
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But you have to admit it's a lot more likely. I would say someone who needs to rely on others for help is a moe archetype because that's the thing most likely to elicit protective feelings, and relying on others is a child-like characteristic. Characters who can look after themselves (or work as a team) simply don't inspire the same feelings in a vast majority of the audience - there's nothing to feel 'moe' about. If a character doesn't seem to need or seek that kind of attention it would be slightly odd to give it to them. Granted, you could probably make any character 'moe' by simple conjecture, or writing a doujin where Revy cries her eyes out to herself about how she's unable to form close relationships with anyone or care about people as a result of her traumatic childhood - but that would be as a result of the viewer's own imagination, rather than a result of the character 'as written'.

Yes, this is more interesting than discussing the programme list. Is a topic split by a clever admin possible?
 
Yeah, I woudn't think too many people feel moe for characters like Revy, but it is possible that some do. And you're right that those characters we do commonly associate with being moe tend to exhibit more childish traits; whether they're weak and sickly or a tsundere who hides a sweet side beneath a fiery exterior.
 
This is it, to me moe is more about playing up the weaknesses of a character as opposed to their strengths. Perhaps I have an aversion to such characterisations precisely because I appreciate more physically and / or mentally strong characters. I think I feel towards most characters others would consider moe the same way a lot of people feel towards Shinji Ikari - that I just want to Bright Slap them and tell them to man up (regardless of gender, of course).
 
memorium said:
isn't this slightly off topic discussing the true term of "moe"?
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yes we all know moe is the source of all evil in the world :roll:
but since it seems to be all that is on the schedule over the las 3 or so seasons it may be a good idea for another thread,
 
It would be nice if people would read what others have written before pointing out things which they have already made clear they are aware of:

ilmaestro said:
I'm not entirely sure how this went so far off topic. ^^;
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fabricatedlunatic said:
This discussion may be off topic, but it's far more interesting than the Winter season innit
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ayase said:
this is more interesting than discussing the programme list. Is a topic split by a clever admin possible?
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So yeah, we know it's off topic, and yeah, we'd happily continue elsewhere if someone more powerful than us was to split the thread. :p
 
All done, if any posts ended up in the wrong half of the split blame it on me being tired and on a Gundam marathon. Now you can dissect moe to death without restraint :)

I hate contrived moe shows (most bishoujo stuff, of course - blame my gender) though sometimes I do get sucked in. Giroro from Keroro Gunsou is my moe weak spot.

R
 
I used to be able to handle shows like Kanon and Clannad. More than anything else, I found them funny (laughing with them, not at them), but if I even attempt to watch a show with characters (read: girls) like that anymore I want to rip my hair out. Weak characters annoy the crap out of me - it's the reason the stereotypical moé blob stuff doesn't work for me.
 
Moe... by its very definition it is impossible to dislike it. It's not a character type, rather a feeling felt towards certain characters. Not everyone will feel moe for the same characters. It's a hard feeling to give a description of, but for me it's the feeling of the want to cheer them on, you feel happy when they feel happy. It is most definitly not a sexual feeling.

What a lot of people dislike isn't moe (as I said, by definition of the term, if you dislike the character you can't feel moe for them) but rather characters who were created for the sole reason of instilling artificial moe. I have limits with artificial moe characters, some are cute but I rarely feel moe for them. A lot of the characters people describe as moe blobs fall into this category, and while not every character described in this way is what I'd call as a character created for the sole reason of instilling moe, a lot are.

Also, moe doesn't have to talk about female characters. One of the most moe characters I can think of is Haranobu Madarame of Genshiken. If Shinji wasn't such a whiny prick, he'd almost be moe.


Hinagiku is tsundere, but she also makes me feel a bit of moe for her too, but she's not the only character in Hayate which does that. Izumi Segawa is another one, but obviously Ayumu is the moe-par-excelence of the series for me. I can't help but want her to keep on trying her best all the time, I smile when she's happy, and when she gets upset I want to pick her up and cheer her on her way.
 
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