A discussion of idealised physical perfection and its impact

[ayase]

I have suggested this in the past and I know some disagree, but I think the western influence and almost 'imperialisation' of beauty over the rest of world, is having devastating consequences for many people's perception of their native appearance. The amount of cosmetic eye surgery's that take place in countries Japan, or the bleaching of skin in places like India, or the Caribbean islands appreciation for "lighties" supports this argument. If you go to many of these countries and you watch the TV or look at magazine covers your almost guaranteed to see an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of models or actors who all have western features about them. That's what people are consistently being told is 'attractive'.

I think it's shame, and I think the situation should be addressed so that there is more balance.

Heh, you do have a tendancy to do this vash. You bring up interesting talking points but they tend to veer off from the topic at hand - I don't know if this is worth splitting out so it can be discussed further without derailing the topic?

Personally, I feel that if the majority of people are so easily influenced then there's little that can be done. The people in the media or fashion industry or whatever might be manipulative, but much of the population are also allowing themselves to be manipulated, they are for the most part pretty gullible and always have been. Society is going to homogenise, globalisation will advance, we will achieve monoculture and I really don't think it can be stopped. There will be negative side effects in the disappearance of local customs but on the upside, there will be less conflict once we share global values. Plenty of local cultures had to fall by the wayside to create the countries we have today from the smaller kingdoms and tribal societies - that process isn't likely to go into reverse.

I'm also not entirely convinced you can influence what people consider attractive to such a large degree - They have to have at least some attraction to a certain aesthetic for companies to cash in on in the first place. I think if anything style and attraction is more likely to become an individualistic thing than a societal one as societies themselves start to become obsolete. Some people find such ideas horrifying, but I absolutely look forward to the days of cyborg bodies and genetic engineering when people can look however they want to look rather than being bound by the genetics they're born with.

 

[Vashdaman]

I think a properly integrated global community is a good and important thing, but I don't think to 'homogenise' and to force western dominance (whether economically or culturally) is good nor do I think it will ever succeed in the long term. On the subject of physical appearance for example, we just don't all have European bone structure, and sure enough a counter movement will occur once people realize that they need to embrace what they are not what they're told they should want to be.

So I do agree with your point that it is ultimately up to the people to decide "you know what I'm going to love what I am", though it would be nice if the media could act with responsibility.

As for your last point, well that's a hard question, but I would tend to agree that on at least some level the attraction had to be there in the first place. But obviously it wasn't always as skewed in one direction as it is now, and I think consistent socialisation has created that. These movies and TV we watch, the stories we're told as kids, etc, these things really get into all our heads, and I'm won't even pretend that I'm not still at least partially a slave to these images I've been fed since a child.

Some people find such ideas horrifying, but I absolutely look forward to the days of cyborg bodies and genetic engineering when people can look however they want to look rather than being bound by the genetics they're born with.

As you would imagine, I'm not in agreement with this sentiment...but that will just take us further off topic.

 

[ayase]

I think a properly integrated global community is a good and important thing, but I don't think to 'homogenise' and to force western dominance (whether economically or culturally) is good nor do I think it will ever succeed in the long term. On the subject of physical appearance for example, we just don't all have European bone structure, and sure enough a counter movement will occur once people realize that they need to embrace what they are not what they're told they should want to be.

(Oh, you've got me going now damn it. And I was going to paint this afternoon).

I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, but I'm confident that is what's going to happen. I think people ought not to strive for what they are told to want or to settle for what they have; and instead to strive for what they want for themselves, in all things. But I've come to accept that most people are very easily influenced and as a result will likely do the former.

So if you are of above average intelligence and not easily influenced, you have the stark choice of becoming a manipulator yourself and attempting to get people believe what you tell them instead, or of allowing others to manipulate and be manipulated. There will be no great awakening - You cannot make the majority of people as insightful or intelligent as yourself (or more so), nor is there any way to stop a more intelligent minority manipulating them for their own ends. Even if they were all wiped out, others would rise to fill their place. This is humanity, and this is how it has always been and always will be, unless by some chance we discover a way to make everybody exactly the same (and I do mean exactly - any difference in appearance or ability would be found as a reason by at least one other to favour or oppress such an individual). This is the only thing which would cause people to wake up. Suddenly, nobody is able to fall under the influence of others. Everybody is able to make their own decisions. But presumably being identical they would all make the same decisions, so every last bit of that diversity you value is gone.

 

[Vashdaman]

.

(Oh, you've got me going now damn it. And I was going to paint this afternoon).

I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, but I'm confident that is what's going to happen. I think people ought not to strive for what they are told to want or to settle for what they have; and instead to strive for what they want for themselves, in all things. But I've come to accept that most people are very easily influenced and as a result will likely do the former.

So if you are of above average intelligence and not easily influenced, you have the stark choice of becoming a manipulator yourself and attempting to get people believe what you tell them instead, or of allowing others to manipulate and be manipulated. There will be no great awakening - You cannot make the majority of people as insightful or intelligent as yourself (or more so), nor is there any way to stop a more intelligent minority manipulating them for their own ends. Even if they were all wiped out, others would rise to fill their place. This is humanity, and this is how it has always been and always will be, unless by some chance we discover a way to make everybody exactly the same (and I do mean exactly - any difference in appearance or ability would be found as a reason by at least one other to favour or oppress such an individual). This is the only thing which would cause people to wake up. Suddenly, nobody is able to fall under the influence of others. Everybody is able to make their own decisions. But presumably being identical they would all make the same decisions, so every last bit of that diversity you value is gone.

I'm just not so cynical as to buy that that is the only way to get people to wake up (but then what you described could also be translated into the spiritual teaching that people are not their names, bodies or minds, as I mentioned in our other thread). Yes there will always be people who have greater ability or more beautiful features than others, but we surely can have communities and societies that are not so out of balance. And personally, I do believe people are slowly waking up. I think big change (both spiritual and societal) will come at some point in the not all too distant future.

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

 

[ayase]

Well, I did asking if it was worth splitting the topic before commencing my first reply; mods work in mysterious ways. I get the feeling we're almost done now anyway.

I'm just not so cynical as to buy that that is the only way to get people to wake up (but then what you described could also be translated into the spiritual teaching that people are not their names, bodies or minds, as I mentioned in our other thread). Yes there will always be people who have greater ability or more beautiful features than others, but we surely can have communities and societies that are not so out of balance.

But surely that's a part of what diversity is - It creates conflict and lack of balance by it's very nature. I don't mean that in entirely negative terms either. Obviously there are negative aspects e're on the same side with this issue; we both like diversity in human beings and human culture. But our concepts of diversity don't need to be tied to the past, to things like tradition or race. As long as we can think differently we will choose to act and look different. Take belonging to a subculture (I'd be more familiar with things like Goth and Punk, but you'd probably be more familiar with Rap and Hip Hop) - who knows why or who or what influenced people's reasons for choosing to belong to these groups, but they are new and different ways of people expressing themselves.

People do also gravitate towards what they find appealing and form groups of similarly minded people. There is diversity in the world as a whole, but far less so within groups. Globalisation is just allowing the dull majority to develop an homogenised global culture because they are bland people for whom difference is not appealing. This has already happened with with most subcultures because there are less of them and they banded together easier out of a sense of self identification. If your big change in attitudes is the majority accepting people who are different to them, I wouldn't hold my breath.

While I am interested in diversity of appearance and of the mind, to me that in no way implies being bound by what nature and genetics has given you. I might be starting to bat the hornet's nest a bit harder now, but what about transgender people? I for one feel they should certainly have the right to project the appearance of the gender they feel they are. Appearance is nothing but a manifestation of who we feel we are inside, and if we don't like it, we should have the power to change it. What about the use of cosmetic surgery? Make-up? Haircuts? Where do you draw the line with what it is and isn't acceptable for people to do to themselves? My answer to that question is very simple, I don't.

And personally, I do believe people are slowly waking up. I think big change (both spiritual and societal) will come at some point in the not all too distant future.

Not sure about spiritual, but how does technological sound? Scary? Potentially disturbing? I agree. But exciting nonetheless. One day soon we might be able to simply swap out our offending body parts...

 

[Vashdaman]

People do also gravitate towards what they find appealing and form groups of similarly minded people. There is diversity in the world as a whole, but far less so within groups. Globalisation is just allowing the dull majority to develop an homogenised global culture because they are bland people for whom difference is not appealing. This has already happened with with most subcultures because there are less of them and they banded together easier out of a sense of self identification. If your big change in attitudes is the majority accepting people who are different to them, I wouldn't hold my breath.

But if you look at the world 100 or so years ago, I think it would be safe to say that there was a hell of a lot less tolerance and acceptance of difference than there is now. Obviously things are not all peachy right now ( for example, the country we live in is still institutionally racist, and we are still bombarded with propaganda promoting the idea of the 'other' every day in the media) , but humanity is evolving slowly. Right now we're in such a time of change, and I think a big milestone will be passed eventually.

While I am interested in diversity of appearance and of the mind, to me that in no way implies being bound by what nature and genetics has given you. I might be starting to bat the hornet's nest a bit harder now, but what about transgender people? I for one feel they should certainly have the right to project the appearance of the gender they feel they are. Appearance is nothing but a manifestation of who we feel we are inside, and if we don't like it, we should have the power to change it. What about the use of cosmetic surgery? Make-up? Haircuts? Where do you draw the line with what it is and isn't acceptable for people to do to themselves? My answer to that question is very simple, I don't.

This may sound somewhat superior of me, but the I don't think the Japanese who get surgery so that their eye's are rounder and larger, or the Jamaicans who are bleaching their skin really want these things, it's want they think they want, but it's not what they really want. I think it's because they are being told that very dark skin is less attractive and so are small eyes and so is natural African hair, they are trying to achieve a supposed ideal. And as I mentioned, a lot of this comes down to the dominance that the west has inflicted upon the world. Do you think if the western ideal of beauty wasn't so idealized that anime characters would still look so distinctly un- Japanese (for the most part) or all these cosmetic procedures would be going on? So I think its a bit different from someone who has a sex change or something similar. And if it carries on I don't think people will ever be happy with how they look. I do think people will always fight against it, it's why so many Jamaicans of Bob Marley's generation turned to Rastafari movement, so that they could break away from the oppression and embrace being what they are as Africans. I think these movements will keep happening.

Not sure about spiritual, but how does technological sound? Scary? Potentially disturbing? I agree. But exciting nonetheless. One day soon we might be able to simply swap out our offending body parts...

No doubt we will have a technological one too. And only time will tell how it will impact us, and how far some will stray from nature.

 

[ayase]

But if you look at the world 100 or so years ago, I think it would be safe to say that there was a hell of a lot less tolerance and acceptance of difference than there is now.

Intolerance was certainly more overt, yes. But I'd argue that it hasn't gone away quite as much as it might appear at first glance, rather people have just stopped expressing such thoughts openly. I'm not convinced people who keep their sexism/racism/homophobia quiet are any more helpful to society than those who shout it from the rooftops.

This may sound somewhat superior of me, but the I don't think the Japanese who get surgery so that their eye's are rounder and larger, or the Jamaicans who are bleaching their skin really want these things, it's want they think they want, but it's not what they really want. I think it's because they are being told that very dark skin is less attractive and so are small eyes and so is natural African hair, they are trying to achieve a supposed ideal. And as I mentioned, a lot of this comes down to the dominance that the west has inflicted upon the world. Do you think if the western ideal of beauty wasn't so idealized that anime characters would still look so distinctly un- Japanese (for the most part) or all these cosmetic procedures would be going on?

See, here's how I decide if I care about the stupid things someone is doing: I ask the question "Is the person doing this stupid thing me?" and in this case, the answer is no. So I ask the further question "Is what they're doing having an effect on me?" Again, no. No matter how crazy I think what other people are doing might be, I really don't feel a need to save them from their own stupidity. As long as they don't involve me in the process they can re-sculpt their bodies with electric bread knives if they so wish. Why even care?

I do think people will always fight against it, it's why so many Jamaicans of Bob Marley's generation turned to Rastafari movement, so that they could break away from the oppression and embrace being what they are as Africans. I think these movements will keep happening.

And that is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to when I talked about new subcultures constantly emerging to carry on the flag of diversity. You have to accept that not everybody joins in these movements though, it is always a minority of people. And they are almost always disliked (even discriminated against) by the majority, who are going to carry on on their own path whether you or I like it or not.

 

[Animefreak17]

everyone's human and those who discriminate against others just because there different are idiots.

and people should just be them selfs

 

[Vashdaman]

See, here's how I decide if I care about the stupid things someone is doing: I ask the question "Is the person doing this stupid thing me?" and in this case, the answer is no. So I ask the further question "Is what they're doing having an effect on me?" Again, no. No matter how crazy I think what other people are doing might be, I really don't feel a need to save them from their own stupidity. As long as they don't involve me in the process they can re-sculpt their bodies with electric bread knives if they so wish. Why even care?

I don't really care about what they are choosing to do to their own bodies, but I do find it a shame that people are having an idealised image pushed on them, one that they will more often than not not fit into or be able to achieve, something that's quite often completely foreign. It's damaging to one's self esteem, and it is easy to say "oh well, they shouldn't be so gullible", but its not always so easy when your raised in a society which so highly praises these ideals and your constantly reminded of this fact through pop culture. I care, because I feel that if the representation people saw in the media was better, they would feel happier. Its a serious issue.

And that is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to when I talked about new subcultures constantly emerging to carry on the flag of diversity. You have to accept that not everybody joins in these movements though, it is always a minority of people. And they are almost always disliked (even discriminated against) by the majority, who are going to carry on on their own path whether you or I like it or not.

Yes, but they can have and have made a difference, I wouldn't count the population of the world out yet, personally. Especially now, when we are seeing so many uprisings and so much conflict going on. People are not ready to just give up on their national identities just yet (I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or a bad thing) when it means they will be giving in to a foreign cultures complete dominance , and many are especially adverse to the economic practices that have been coinciding with globalisation, and are aware of the nations that these practices have left in ruin.

I think if we are to become a true global community then we have to come at it from a different angle, or else it just won't work.

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

Yes, but they can have and have made a difference, I wouldn't count the population of the world out yet, personally. Especially now, when we are seeing so many uprisings and so much conflict going on. People are not ready to just give up on their national identities just yet (I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or a bad thing) when it means they will be giving in to a foreign cultures complete dominance , and many are especially adverse to the economic practices that have been coinciding with globalisation, and are aware of the nations that these practices have left in ruin.

I think if we are to become a true global community then we have to come at it from a different angle, or else it just won't work.

I'd agree with that last point. I mean I'm not especially patriotic by any means but I am certainly very fond of merry old England. Even if it is somewhat plain in many respects.

I don't really feel qualified or prepared to contribute more to this conversation than that =P

 

[FourthLion]

I'd like to point out that some of the things mentioned in the original quote, like light coloured skin and certain eye shapes, were prejudices in those countries before any Western influences anyway.

Arab countries had long shunned the darker skinned of their country as the 'common' long before any white folk turned up and Asians were up to allsorts of things like the feet binding...

 

[Vashdaman]

But it was nowhere near as wide spread as it is now. I'm fairly sure that African's did not favour very light toned skin before the country was colonized. It's not hard to think of examples of terrible things that took place before colonisation, but it does not negate the fact that the legacy it has left on the world has been extremely damaging, and that legacy is still very much alive and well today, unfortunately.

It's also a shame that we're always usually taught of the negatives that existed before western influence was spread throughout the globe, but our history textbooks (as you would expect) always seem to miss out the amazing feats that were achieved.

 

[Rui]

I don't think it's just western ideals which are dominating, particularly. Here all of the women inexplicably seem to be trying to appear as bright orange and tanned as is physically possible, even to the extent of risking their health. I can't see fashion as anything other than mortifyingly foolish, so ayase's ideal of being able to configure your physical form also doesn't sit right with me as it seems to be a natural culmination of the side of humanity I find less appealing (vanity and too much focus on physical interaction rather than being interesting intellectually).

While I don't disagree that our country has done some horrible things, I've been to places with negligible western influence and still seen local women whitening their skin as best they can and covering themselves from the darkening effect of the sun in the name of beauty. It's bonkers.

Again in the west, people used to also risk their health to appear more white when that was fashionable and more difficult to attain. The exotic has a natural allure so as people who are surrounded by dark complexions often try to stand out (ironically, in the exact same way as all of their peers) by going for a lighter look, and people who are very fair envy darker skinned beauty. Very few people seem to learn to be comfortable with their own place in the world no matter what the circumstances.

R

 

[ayase]

I can't see fashion as anything other than mortifyingly foolish, so ayase's ideal of being able to configure your physical form also doesn't sit right with me as it seems to be a natural culmination of the side of humanity I find less appealing (vanity and too much focus on physical interaction rather than being interesting intellectually).

Most people are incapable of being intellectually interesting anyway, so they may as well at least be pleasing to look at. ;P

Even if we aren't subject to society's pressures or swayed by the opinions of the majority, we all still hold individual ideals of beauty though, surely? It's more for the sake of practicality than beauty that I'm personally in favour of Transhumanism, but given the choice between placing my consciousness in a small metal box or a container shaped like the most attractive human being I can imagine, I'd go for the latter. Would I be doing that for myself or for others? Well, both I think, because I happen to enjoy basking in the adoration of others. If other people don't then by all means, feel free to choose the metal box when the time comes.

 

[Vashdaman]

I completely agree that 'the grass is always greener' thinking does definitely play it's part in problem, but I don't think that that's all it is. If that's all there was to it, then the worlds view of "beautiful" wouldn't be so consistently skewed in one direction. Sure, some people do choose to tan( but's it's only really an olive colour that is desirable and not really a dark complexion, though it's true that they mostly end up orange) but when you look at our media you consistently lighter skin models, singers or actors receive all the attention, they are our 'stars or 'idols' or 'icons', they usually have western looking facial features and almost always straight silky hair.

Our media does not often praise people with strikingly African, Asian or Middle Eastern style features. How many women of African origin do you see with 'relaxed' straight hair, and how many women of non- African origin do you see doing the reverse? When you go to places like Jamaica or other countries in the middle east or India or wherever, you will see a very similar ideal being praised (and often, individuals who meet that criteria are treated as being all round superior!), not the reverse. It's not equal.

I think that the truth is that over all these years, people with dark skin, African facial features or Arabic looks (especially nowadays) or any decidedly non-European looks, have been stigmatized and told that they are inferior. And we're still having the same thing being told to us today in our media.


@Ayase

Do you really think people will ever learn to be happy if they can't be happy with what they already have, though?

 

[ayase]

Do you really think people will ever learn to be happy if they can't be happy with what they already have, though?

It depends if happiness is really the goal, and of course what brings each individual happiness differs (or what they perceive to be happiness does, I'm still not a hundred percent certain happiness can even be defined as a concept).

I'm reminded of the contrast Nietzsche draws between the possible futures of humanity presented in the forms of the Übermensch and the Last Man - The former being an aspirational ideal for humanity to work and strive for, the latter attempting nothing that is difficult or which might threaten his safety or comfort (which embody his perceived happiness) and as a result, achieving nothing either:

"Alas! There comes the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself."

Disliking what you are now can give you the aspiration of becoming something better in the future. If you are happy with what you are, there is no such impetus for self-improvement.

 

[Animefreak17]

@vashdaman people who see others change there appearance due to surgery either -

1 follow popular peoples shadows * not literally * and try be apart of the crowd
2 other people making of them cause of how they look

and i agree with you people should be happy with what they have.
but if there more then happy to get surgery then let them

 

[Vashdaman]

Thanks for those jewels AF. But that's my whole point, if it's really something that comes from within (like presumably wanting to change sex is) that could potentially lead one to feel happier with themselves, but if one is getting surgery to conform to image that others are imposing on them, then I doubt it lead to any sort of long lasting sort of happiness, or self esteem...I would imagine at least, but there may be exceptions.

Disliking what you are now can give you the aspiration of becoming something better in the future. If you are happy with what you are, there is no such impetus for self-improvement.

Well yes, it is important to have the ambition to better oneself, but on the other hand, if one doesn't have a certain amount of self respect and happiness within themselves then they probably won't want to help anyone else, either. So I think it's only worthwhile improving yourself so that you can help someone else, and don't get me wrong you could decide to improve your looks (and have surgery) so that you feel more confident and thus can give more towards others. But I think it's very important to at least have that clear in the mind, and not get caught up chasing your own tail round in circles.

 

[neptune2venus]

An interesting topic which I feel I have to add to give a different viewpoint.

Perfection is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. It is something, which I believe, to be unattainable. Certainly, there are people who are closer to it than others.

From an evolutionary point of view, attractiveness is a biological response which will more likely than not bring two people together. For example - 'You caught my eye' and etc. This does not necessarily mean a sexual interest as physical beauty is perceived to be inherently 'good' despite the ugliness that may lie within. Celebrities are one facet which could fall under this category. People always desire something which is out of reach; colour of skin, physical attractiveness, colour of eyes etc. It can be argued that surgery will be able to eventually to fashion us in the way which we desire.

Ultimately, I feel it is down to eugenics. The genes that we have, disposition us to certain physcial qualities in a person such as: symmetries, familarity, health and even the pitch of your voice. For women, a large part of physical attractiveness is based on her menstrual cycle alone. In the menses, she is not deemed attractive as she cannot reproduce. However, during ovulation she is more attractive and feels that way also. Her attraction to the physical qualities in men during that point can switch due to genetic quality for reproduction purposes.

This is only physical attractiveness from an evolutionary point of view. There are many views on this subject - but I feel media is partially to blame for pushing the envelope of perceived attractiveness even further. I don't believe humanity will become one, but it will be divided by what it already is: rich and poor. The rich will be attractive because they will ultimately control eugenics and thus control 'physical attractiveness' to a point. The human race will not homogenise, social mobility restricts this and also our very genone - because the imperfections make us who we are.