Rate the last anime you watched out of 10

[Dai]

Randomly, I've never really gotten into Gundam, but how or where would you advise a newcomer to start with this sprawling franchise? I sort of watched unicorn, though ended up sleeping through a lot of it as was watching very late at night so doubt very much I got much out of that watch...

Unicorn isn't the best starting place, as it's set deep into the main Gundam timeline (Universal Century). If you want to dip your toe into this ocean of giant robots, you're in luck, as Crunchyroll have recently added the original series. That isn't necessarily the best way to experience it for the first time though, as the original series is a rare case where the compilation movies make improvements over the source material, especially towards the end. The series is a good option if you want to try before you buy though.

As for when to watch The Origin, I'd recommend switching to it part-way through the original series, and then switching back. If you're watching the movies, watch Gundam 1, the Origin, and then Gundam 2 and 3. If you're watching the series, watch up until Sayla encounters Char for the first time, then Origin, and then the rest of the series. There's a TV edit of The Origin on Crunchyroll, but I hear it cuts out quite a lot from the movies.

If you want to jump head-first into the Universal Century timeline after that, here's the basic running order (someone correct me if I've mixed up some of the later ones):
Origin - Gundam - Zeta - ZZ - Char's Counterattack (the last time the story is focused on all the original characters) - Unicorn - NT - F91 - V

War in the Pocket, 08th MS Team, and Thunderbolt are all side-stories that take place during the latter part of the original series. Stardust Memory takes place between the original series and Zeta.

And then there's all the alternate timelines...

 

[Neil.T]

But Mai mai, yeah no, didn't work for me. I think I watched in two or three sittings

Yeah, you know what? I felt like I wanted to do the same thing. For something that's clearly supposed to have a light and airy feel to it, it wasn't half an endurance test.

I was totally done in after only about 34 minutes of it.

a load of stuff

I got the Totoro connection from watching it as well. As for the extended (distended?) In This Corner (and Other Corners) of the World, I cannot even begin to imagine what that would feel like to sit through: I just looked at the running time for the original that I saw at the cinema, and it turns out it was a mind-numbing 2hrs 09mins.

I have no idea how I managed it.

Thunderbolt: December Sky is also a good watch and is a stand alone 70min film so a good way to dip your toe in and see how you feel.

December Sky is the only Gundam I've seen so far. I hadn't ever felt in any hurry to find a lead in to the franchise, in spite of how hugely popular it is, but since it was screening at Scotland Loves Anime one year, ahead of one of the films I wanted to see, well...

I really couldn't get into it, but what surprised me was just by how much I couldn't get into it. The only thing I liked was the hand-drawn mecha battles. As for the rest, I initially thought that the issues I had with the plot and characterisation could be down to it being edited down from its original OVAs, but I later learned that the film is in fact scaled up from those, so it must've actually been written that way in the first place.

I think Gundam just simply isn't for me.

 

[WMD]

as the original series is a rare case where the compilation movies make improvements over the source material,

Honestly I disagree. The series is way better than the films for me. I'd say watch the series and then watch only the 3rd film (which as you say does add to the story in a meaningful way)

 

[WMD]

and it turns out it was a mind-numbing 2hrs 09mins.

Amusingly that's not even that long but In This Corner is paced like a dead snail in a race so it feels about twice as long!

I think we've all learned a lot about stuff we won't be watching again today.

Lol. To flip this around I'll talk about something I watched last night which I will definitely be watching again! :

The Island of Giant Insects
This is the anime equivalent of sci fi channel horror B-movies. But if you have fun watching those then I couldnt reccomend this more! A group of teenagers get stranded on an island and soon discover inhabited by giant insects that are gona eat them! It's a silly premise but it's very entertaining.

I got it through the kickstarter to fund an English dub for it and seriously, if you watch this, watch it with the dub. It is glorious! It's like an old Manga UK dub. Full of OTT swearing but with proper actors who know what they're doing! Seriously the dub was my favourite thing about this film!

The animation is decent but the CGI for the insects can be a little janky at times (which is like a sy fy film to be fair!)

If you're gona look at it critically you probably wouldn't rate it that highly but in terms of pure enjoyment and a hilariously vulgar dub this becomes a solid 10/10 experience.

 

[Cloudstrife7894]

I think Gundam just simply isn't for me.

Gundam is a big franchise that has some shows that work more for some people than others. If you feel like giving the series another try, then I can vouch for War in the Pocket, which is a short 6 episode OVA and is probably my favourite Gundam entry. It's more low key and smaller in scale compared to some of the other shows, and is quite engaging. Probably the best Christmas anime this side of Tokyo Godfathers too.

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

That's a good question. Dont know how much you know about Gundam so apologies of this is all obvious to you. Theres main timeline shows and alternate reality shows. Main timeline shows are worth watching in timeline order (in my opinion). Origin is a good starting point but you do get more from it if you've seen the original series first. Thunderbolt: December Sky is also a good watch and is a stand alone 70min film so a good way to dip your toe in and see how you feel.

On balance some the alternate timeline stuff is a good place to start as each series is a stand alone piece. Iron blooded Orphans is my favourite of those (I've seen) 00 is also good.

Good stuff, thanks dude. I had heard about different timelines and was in fact going to watch iron blooded orphans next under the assumption it was stand alone mainly, until crunchyroll got the original series. Will probably start with either of those two and see.

Unicorn isn't the best starting place, as it's set deep into the main Gundam timeline (Universal Century). If you want to dip your toe into this ocean of giant robots, you're in luck, as Crunchyroll have recently added the original series. That isn't necessarily the best way to experience it for the first time though, as the original series is a rare case where the compilation movies make improvements over the source material, especially towards the end. The series is a good option if you want to try before you buy though.

As for when to watch The Origin, I'd recommend switching to it part-way through the original series, and then switching back. If you're watching the movies, watch Gundam 1, the Origin, and then Gundam 2 and 3. If you're watching the series, watch up until Sayla encounters Char for the first time, then Origin, and then the rest of the series. There's a TV edit of The Origin on Crunchyroll, but I hear it cuts out quite a lot from the movies.

If you want to jump head-first into the Universal Century timeline after that, here's the basic running order (someone correct me if I've mixed up some of the later ones):
Origin - Gundam - Zeta - ZZ - Char's Counterattack (the last time the story is focused on all the original characters) - Unicorn - NT - F91 - V

War in the Pocket, 08th MS Team, and Thunderbolt are all side-stories that take place during the latter part of the original series. Stardust Memory takes place between the original series and Zeta.

And then there's all the alternate timelines...

Many thanks!! Compilation movies may be easier to watch, especially if deemed better, but unless available for streaming I may try the original series then. Thanks for the top tips! I more or less ruined my Haruhi experience when I watched that in the default timeline order on the US import (was unaware of the timeline aspects of that one backt then.), so it's really useful to know what order to watch in. I thought Unicorn was stand alone but clearly it wasn't heh.

I think Gundam just simply isn't for me.

I've had a suspicion that may be the case for me and it's sprawling nature makes it difficult to know where to start but if possible I'm always one to try everything properly once before I say no! Let's see, I shall remain optimistic.

It's like an old Manga UK dub. Full of OTT swearing but with proper actors who know what they're doing!

Heh, after watching cyber city oedo, I am now all for watching entertaining ott sweary dubs, another added to the list, sigh...

 

[WMD]

Heh, after watching cyber city oedo, I am now all for watching entertaining ott sweary dubs, another added to the list, sigh...

Have you seen Panty and Stocking? It was made after the creators saw Drawn Together and found it hilarious. Its rude crude and often offensive for the sake of it. The style is like grown up Power Puff Girls. It's another where the English dub is definitely the way to watch it!

 

[Neil.T]

Have you seen Panty and Stocking?
. . .
It's another where the English dub is definitely the way to watch it!

I can vouch for that too. Just swearing in English might be hilarious to a Japanese audience, but it's not enough for us English speakers, so the dub has to reach a little further and comes up with some cracking ad-libs.

@Geriatric hedgehog:
FYI, Panty & Stocking is a Gainax show. It's basically them having a go at making an American adult cartoon.

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

Have you seen Panty and Stocking? It was made after the creators saw Drawn Together and found it hilarious. Its rude crude and often offensive for the sake of it. The style is like grown up Power Puff Girls. It's another where the English dub is definitely the way to watch it!

I can vouch for that too. Just swearing in English might be hilarious to a Japanese audience, but it's not enough for us English speakers, so the dub has to reach a little further and comes up with some cracking ad-libs.

@Geriatric hedgehog:
FYI, Panty & Stocking is a Gainax show. It's basically them having a go at making an American adult cartoon.

Heheh yes it's on my Amazon wishlist and Amazon coincidentally reminded me to buy it just last week! May put in the order after payday heh.

 

[RadFemHedonist]

I just watch ojamajo Doremi recently
10/10 for me
Gclub

OMG I'm planning to watch that it just looked sooo cute!

 

[Dan]

B the Beginning - 8/10

Really enjoyed this, I love stuff with detectives/detective elements in there. I liked that it had an ending aswell (although a little bit for heres how we do a season 2). I thought with season 2 coming up it might be one of those it’s like the mid point rather than 2 actual seasons, although not sure if that’s a thing of the past to the whole half seasons as I used to like to call them

I actually felt like there were 2 different stories cleverly intertwined into 1 here. Very well done.

 

[Dan]

Berserk (2016) - 7/10

Wells lets state the obvious first, the 3d was awful. I was sat there at times thinking what have they done and on a few occasions I had to laugh at the stiffness of the movement (the head movements get met he most). I'm really not a fan and hope we don't ever see a full transition to this. I found the decision to go 3D a strange one tbh. In the movies I kinda felt ok there are some big battles so maybe that's why they used it for those but here there isn’t any, it's all smaller battles (a least there aren’t huge amounts of people on screen at the same time) so unless there's something coming up in season 2/2017 then I find this decision utterly bizarre. Is there seriously such a small budget for Berserk this is the only way we are gonna get anymore, this janky 3d madness? Maybe someone can tell me. I was under the impression Berserk was huge? Does the animated versions really not sell that well or is there another reason?

Last thing on the art style I want to mention is the manga pencil markings (or whatever you wanna call them) on the characters. I think it was a bit hit and miss sometimes they completely overdid it other times it looked ok. I didn’t mind so much when they did it when the characters facial features are in shadow I think it at times it looked quite nice but there were a few scenes where it was like they'd done it as an overlay over all the characters on screen making it look really ugly and when those characters moved it looked even worse coz it didn't move with them.

Spoiler: Overdone

The last thing I want to mention on the negatives is how out of place most/if not all the comedic moments were. I’ve not read the Manga (something that's about to change) but Berserk to me is very serious with some absolutely horrific things happening, so Puck and Isidro suddenly changing character design for comedic effect left me a little baffled.. I’m not saying there weren't 1 or 2 times it worked but for the most part I was just scratching my head. Iirc the bits that made me laugh in the 97 series were more sarcasm or quick whit which works much better with what's happening in the story. Maybe it just wasn't very well done in this

So onto the positives. I mean it's Berserk, despite not enjoying the first ep (I thought some of the music choices were strange) I actually got into after a very enjoyable 2nd episode and enjoyed the story as it unfolded and you know it's got Gutz who is my fave character of all time. I mean see my avatar I actually didn’t mind the new English voice actor either but he was never going to compare to Marc Diraison. I thought the rest of the dub characters were well done too tbh. The story I liked, Gutz constant fight to get back to Casca is part of the characters charm that draws me in, he looks out for those in need and its heart warming. I really liked some of the other character too Isidro, Farnese (although she was kinda annoying me at the end, believe it, its happening right in front of you), Serpico.. I can’t wait to see more of them.

Overall though it left me a little frustrated.. mainly with the artstyle and wishing I was mega rich and had the ability to buy the rights to the series so I could demand its animated in 2D and just throw money at it to make it look beautiful <drifts off into a dream world>..........Where was I?

One thing I just want to clarify is my love for Berserk is all based off the 1997 series which I still rate (alongside FMA: Brotherhood) as the best Anime series I’ve ever seen and that's without a proper ending. I am fully aware there are things cut out and I believe some things added in. Its something I have finally bit the bullet on and decided to order the first volume (i have a despatch confirmation, so should be here soon) so I may find some of the comedic elements happen in the Manga, I’m intrigued to see if these moments are there coz I have seen artwork where Puck's character design does change but I’d expect that it would be better done in the Manga and not put in in moments where the tension needs to be high and shouldn't be broken by...

Spoiler: Annoying

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

Berserk (2016) - 7/10

Wells lets state the obvious first, the 3d was awful. I was sat there at times thinking what have they done and on a few occasions I had to laugh at the stiffness of the movement (the head movements get met he most). I'm really not a fan and hope we don't ever see a full transition to this. I found the decision to go 3D a strange one tbh. In the movies I kinda felt ok there are some big battles so maybe that's why they used it for those but here there isn’t any, it's all smaller battles (a least there aren’t huge amounts of people on screen at the same time) so unless there's something coming up in season 2/2017 then I find this decision utterly bizarre. Is there seriously such a small budget for Berserk this is the only way we are gonna get anymore, this janky 3d madness? Maybe someone can tell me. I was under the impression Berserk was huge? Does the animated versions really not sell that well or is there another reason?

Last thing on the art style I want to mention is the manga pencil markings (or whatever you wanna call them) on the characters. I think it was a bit hit and miss sometimes they completely overdid it other times it looked ok. I didn’t mind so much when they did it when the characters facial features are in shadow I think it at times it looked quite nice but there were a few scenes where it was like they'd done it as an overlay over all the characters on screen making it look really ugly and when those characters moved it looked even worse coz it didn't move with them.

Spoiler: Overdone

View attachment 17271

The last thing I want to mention on the negatives is how out of place most/if not all the comedic moments were. I’ve not read the Manga (something that's about to change) but Berserk to me is very serious with some absolutely horrific things happening, so Puck and Isidro suddenly changing character design for comedic effect left me a little baffled.. I’m not saying there weren't 1 or 2 times it worked but for the most part I was just scratching my head. Iirc the bits that made me laugh in the 97 series were more sarcasm or quick whit which works much better with what's happening in the story. Maybe it just wasn't very well done in this

So onto the positives. I mean it's Berserk, despite not enjoying the first ep (I thought some of the music choices were strange) I actually got into after a very enjoyable 2nd episode and enjoyed the story as it unfolded and you know it's got Gutz who is my fave character of all time. I mean see my avatar I actually didn’t mind the new English voice actor either but he was never going to compare to Marc Diraison. I thought the rest of the dub characters were well done too tbh. The story I liked, Gutz constant fight to get back to Casca is part of the characters charm that draws me in, he looks out for those in need and its heart warming. I really liked some of the other character too Isidro, Farnese (although she was kinda annoying me at the end, believe it, its happening right in front of you), Serpico.. I can’t wait to see more of them.

Overall though it left me a little frustrated.. mainly with the artstyle and wishing I was mega rich and had the ability to buy the rights to the series so I could demand its animated in 2D and just throw money at it to make it look beautiful <drifts off into a dream world>..........Where was I?

One thing I just want to clarify is my love for Berserk is all based off the 1997 series which I still rate (alongside FMA: Brotherhood) as the best Anime series I’ve ever seen and that's without a proper ending. I am fully aware there are things cut out and I believe some things added in. Its something I have finally bit the bullet on and decided to order the first volume (i have a despatch confirmation, so should be here soon) so I may find some of the comedic elements happen in the Manga, I’m intrigued to see if these moments are there coz I have seen artwork where Puck's character design does change but I’d expect that it would be better done in the Manga and not put in in moments where the tension needs to be high and shouldn't be broken by...

Spoiler: Annoying

View attachment 17272View attachment 17273

I feel the same about a lot of what you've mentioned. The terrible CGI is pretty infamous but like you mentioned, I also thought the music/score really went downhill with the new series. What I did think were done really well, were the more contemporary sound effects which I thought were fantastic during the battles (and probably the only hook for me to keep watching the new anime). Also very good point, that now makes me wonder too, as to surely there being more than enough interest to budget such a beloved series for quality adaptations... And yeah the humour and Puck are very much in the manga as well, and can add some light relief but I also found their use odd at other times.

Think I'll stick to the manga, though am still gradually making my way through the anime series (there's only so much terrible CGI I can tolerate at a time...).

 

[ActionFaust]

Berserk (2016) - 7/10

Wells lets state the obvious first, the 3d was awful. I was sat there at times thinking what have they done and on a few occasions I had to laugh at the stiffness of the movement (the head movements get met he most). I'm really not a fan and hope we don't ever see a full transition to this. I found the decision to go 3D a strange one tbh. In the movies I kinda felt ok there are some big battles so maybe that's why they used it for those but here there isn’t any, it's all smaller battles (a least there aren’t huge amounts of people on screen at the same time) so unless there's something coming up in season 2/2017 then I find this decision utterly bizarre. Is there seriously such a small budget for Berserk this is the only way we are gonna get anymore, this janky 3d madness? Maybe someone can tell me. I was under the impression Berserk was huge? Does the animated versions really not sell that well or is there another reason?

It's actually a pretty big misconception that CG anime have smaller budgets than 2D anime. This article explains it really well. In short it was the fault of an overly ambitious director and his demands that the studio just couldn't keep up with.

On a related point much of the issues plaguing anime production don't result from a low budget. The main issue for the industry is the production schedule. Many productions are rushed and without that extra breathing room the art suffers.

 

[Dan]

It's actually a pretty big misconception that CG anime have smaller budgets than 2D anime. This article explains it really well. In short it was the fault of an overly ambitious director and his demands that the studio just couldn't keep up with.

On a related point much of the issues plaguing anime production don't result from a low budget. The main issue for the industry is the production schedule. Many productions are rushed and without that extra breathing room the art suffers.

Yeah I should have really included that. I’m aware that time restraints cause issues.. in fact it’s the same in the games industry. Cyberpunk 2077 a classic example.

I wasn’t aware of that article so thanks for sharing, great read. Quoted some points below

It's been argued that Itagaki's history with brightly-colored comedy and silly action series would clash with the dark and gritty world of Berserk

It definitely did, I'm sure it will be done miles better in the Manga, some of the comic timing was so misplaced in this series.

3D animation is the only practical way to adapt Berserk to a television series in today's anime production environment.

This makes me want to cry

and oh god that teaser trailer. That was the reason I was never going to watch it but spotted it all on crunchyroll and saw it was dubbed so went for it. Glad it at least improved on that.

Then a series of predictable issues followed. Not only were the highly detailed character models too much strain on the viewport in their 3DSMax software, the staff had difficulties getting these models to render at all. Without the time to find a new solution, the staff were forced to simplify these models that were originally meant to replicate as much detail from the manga as possible. The removal of lines and edges meant that their designs could now be practically animated with the hardware at GEMBA, but they also deviated greatly from their original plans for the look of the show.

Well that explains a lot, wonder what it would have looked like if they had the software to pull this off. Maybe in the future as 3DSMax is pretty powerful so its probably not possible right now. I do wonder if it was more hardware based though as i'm sure Disney/Pixar don't have the same issues, although their art style is more simplified.

It really does seem that even with all the money in the world you'd probably end up doing it in 3D. It seems to me the best way forward would be to plan better at the beginning and ensure they test to make sure they can pull off what they want to achieve but what studio would have the money and time to do this? I would think none. Also seems like they picked the wrong Director, although I can understand him wanting to keep the look close to the manga but we all have to compromise in life.

I am still going to watch season 2/2017 next week. I still enjoyed it enough but I won't expect it to look better

 

[Dan]

I feel the same about a lot of what you've mentioned. The terrible CGI is pretty infamous but like you mentioned, I also thought the music/score really went downhill with the new series. What I did think were done really well, were the more contemporary sound effects which I thought were fantastic during the battles (and probably the only hook for me to keep watching the new anime). Also very good point, that now makes me wonder too, as to surely there being more than enough interest to budget such a beloved series for quality adaptations... And yeah the humour and Puck are very much in the manga as well, and can add some light relief but I also found their use odd at other times.

Think I'll stick to the manga, though am still gradually making my way through the anime series (there's only so much terrible CGI I can tolerate at a time...).

I actually thought the music got better but never truly what I expect from Berserk. I can't actually remember the music in the 97 series but I do remember that I really liked it and if you get that right.. well I'll just say as someone who makes (amateur) short films it is to me the most important ingredient.

I'm still gonna watch Season 2/2017 but not gonna expect anything better from it. I'll read the Manga at the same time.

I am actually currently playing the PS4 game Band of the Hawk. Enjoying it so far.. its funny how I look at the clips of the movie (which I wasn't happy with at the time) and think man it looks so much better than the latest series to the point I'm not complaining about it anymore

 

[ayase]

Not only were the highly detailed character models too much strain on the viewport in their 3DSMax software, the staff had difficulties getting these models to render at all.

too much strain on the viewport

If that’s accurate, these guys were expected to create high quality animation using toasters, I seriously doubt any of the character models for any iteration of Berserk would be high-poly enough to cause slowdown in Max on any computer actually suitable for 3D work. Note they’re not even talking about rendering out here, just the simple act of working on the art/animation in the programme itself.

Well that explains a lot, wonder what it would have looked like if they had the software to pull this off. Maybe in the future as 3DSMax is pretty powerful so its probably not possible right now.

It’s entirely possible to create very high quality art and animation in Max. But not if your computers can’t even handle mid-poly models in the effing viewport. I feel more sympathy for the animators than anger.

 

[Dan]

If that’s accurate, these guys were expected to create high quality animation using toasters, I seriously doubt any of the character models for any iteration of Berserk would be high-poly enough to cause slowdown in Max on any computer actually suitable for 3D work. Note they’re not even talking about rendering out here, just the simple act of working on the art/animation in the programme itself.


It’s entirely possible to create very high quality art and animation in Max. But not if your computers can’t even handle mid-poly models in the effing viewport. I feel more sympathy for the animators than anger.

Yeah I updated my message to say it was probably hardware, Im reading through the articles forum posts... and finding out a few more things... I do wonder when the next time we’ll see an adaption. At this rate I’d rather have 3 movies again if that’s the only way we’ll get more. I’m very worried after this debacle no one will want to touch it

 

[Dai]

If that’s accurate, these guys were expected to create high quality animation using toasters, I seriously doubt any of the character models for any iteration of Berserk would be high-poly enough to cause slowdown in Max on any computer actually suitable for 3D work. Note they’re not even talking about rendering out here, just the simple act of working on the art/animation in the programme itself.


It’s entirely possible to create very high quality art and animation in Max. But not if your computers can’t even handle mid-poly models in the effing viewport. I feel more sympathy for the animators than anger.

Yes, it sounds bizarre, especially when you consider the kind of visuals that consoles and gaming PCs can handle these days. Take Guilty Gear Xrd, a game that renders better-looking cel-shaded models than Berserk in real time, and does so on GPUs from around 2006.

 

[RadFemHedonist]

I have only seen a little bit of the first ep of the CGI Berserk series... sad they couldn't have made something even close to as nice looking as one of Orange's productions (Beastars, Land of the Lustrous) or Dreamworks' Trollhunters series (Netflix original). I know a lot of people weren't keen on it but I loved the Ghibli TV series Ronja the Robber's Daughter as well (watched the whole thing subbed and really enjoyed it, the dub was a bit questionable in quality sadly) and that looks miles better than the Berserk series IMO. I wish more people would give that show a proper chance they tell the story really well and it's a lot of fun. I'm also gonna say, related to that, that I feel like some people will watch any old cel-animated garbage that has terribly stiff limited animation and is badly drawn out of mostly nostalgia but the second anything CGI isn't executed 11/10 perfect those same people will say it looks rubbish and is generally not worth seeing. I WISH I could make something that looks as pretty and expressive as that Ronja series! But yeah they did mess up the visuals on the Berserk CG anime. I might still watch it for the story/characters though as I liked the 1997 anime a lot (and I agree, the music was great as well)

Cardcaptor Sakura TV (and Tomoyo's Video Diary Shorts) 10/10

I've been meaning to finish this for years and I'm so glad I did, it's beautifully visualized, touching and tender, full of endless cuteness, lovely music as well. My favourite character just might be Tomoyo but I loved everyone in the show. I really must say I was blown away by how good the series looks in HD, it's utterly gorgeous with a lot of attention paid to things like the way sunlight dapples through tree leaves and much of the animation being impressively fluid and actually looking, you know, animated (properly), which is even more impressive when you consider the show's length and when it was originally released! And the Japanese VAs did an amazing job with all the characters (the Japanese VA for Yukito is the VA for Shinji from Evangelion which makes me super happy). Will be nice to see how the Clear Card dub is though when I watch that (I'll probably end up watching it subbed anyway but I'm glad they dubbed it at a higher standard and uncut unlike Animax or Nelvana).

EDIT: Also I cracked up when the slightly darker musical cues in the last few eps sounded like something out of an 80s Kawajiri OVA... gotta love Madhouse bless 'em