Now and Then Here and There
- Thread starter Ark
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Doberman Pharaoh
Hunter
I've seen and loved it.
Very, very good show. Unsurprisingly given the premise it's very tragic and quite depressing, but no where near as bad as say Saikano in that respect. Ultimately, it's about the journey of an ordinary happy kid as he deals with being thrown into a bleak, war ridden world ruled mad king and his army of child soldiers. It certainly doesn't pull any punches when it comes to it's anti war theme and comes across as intensely emotional as a result. In that respect it's comparable to Grave of the Fireflies, although the setting is very different. It's not flawless and it can be criticised for being a bit too black and white, but it's definitely recommended.
Ushio said:
Not as much as it damaged Sarah.
Noratav said:
I hope what you're saying is that Saikano is aweful by comparison.
Noratav said:
I wouldn't say its black and white. There are good and bad people shown among both the aggressors and the victims. Even individuals are shown to be multi-layered such as Nabuca, Kazam and even Sarah to an extent.
Doberman Pharaoh
Hunter
Oh yeah the last few episodes were quite depressing. The deaths came thick and fast. 
Ramadahl said:
I think you mean Kazam but it's not clear that he's the father or if he even raped her. Though it would make more sense in terms of the general themes if we assume he did. I've always thought that the show has quite a Christian message in comparison to other anime.
The name escapes me. To clarify, I mean the soldier who was swept away in the last episode to save the child by giving it to Sarah. And while it's not made explicit that he was the father (indeed, how would she even know?) or if he even raped her, the implications are crystal clear. Plus, the message is that much stronger if we assume these things to be true.Ark said:
I don't know about it having a Christian message, but I can't really see any Christians objecting to it either. It seems a little too... realistic?... for that. In fact, I can't remember where I heard this, but wasn't it supposed to be based off a real war in central Africa?
Spoilers added to be on the safe side.
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Ramadahl said:
That is Kazam but why are the implications crystal clear and why is the message stronger if he is the father?
Ramadahl said:
There are themes like forgiveness and atonement which you don't find in a lot of other anime. Plus the struggle between a pessimistic view of humans and an optimistic one.
Ramadahl said:
I've heard that as well but there are child soldiers in a lot of countries in and out of Africa.
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Well, when I was saying the implications are crystal clear I guess I was really referring to the fact that she was raped - it's never shown, but since she was a female prisoner of no importance regularly visited by soldiers and became pregnant, it's obvious what happened. IIRC her actions around him also indicate what he did to her.Ark said:
As to him being the father giving a more powerful message - while any soldier having performed such an altruistic act in front of her like that could've moved her, having the one who raped her and got her pregnant gives a much more poignant counterpoint - one person being at different times both good and evil to such an extent in the generally accepted use of such terms.
Ah, ok, I'll agree with that then. Wasn't really sure what having a Christian message would entail.Ark said:
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Ark said:
WTF? I am not making any comment at all about the quality of Saikano. I am merely saying that NTHT is a tragic and depressing show, but that Saikano is even tragic and depressing. I don't really understand how you can interpret my comment any other way.
Ark said:
The fact that many of the characters are sympathetic does not change that the show is very black and white, in fact their experiences and the fact they've survived them intact serves to reinforce the rather black & white world view of the show. The fact that the characters are so human, in contrast to the the insanity of Hamdo and the horrific nature of the setting is one of the strengths of the show. The same setting does not remove any doubt as to which side is good and which side is evil, nor does it change the fact that the anti war element of the show is laid on exceptionally thickly, even for an anime. In fact the real triumph of the show is that, if you get pulled in by the characters and sympathise with them then the weaknesses in the setting are easily ignored, instead the focus is on the struggles of the characters between doing the right thing and taking the easy way out. It's here that the themes you mention as being 'christian' emerge. This is where the comparison to Grave of the Fireflies comes in, because that movie suffers from the same problem.
Noratav said:
Are the Zari Bars people shown as being totally good? Far from it. They're not shown as being malevolent as Hellywood but how can they be when they're not the aggressors? Likewise not all the Hellywood characters are shown as being totally evil. Only Hamdo is shown to have lost any sense of morality. On the flip side only Shu is really shown as being totally good.
Wait, you're saying that Hamdo and the setting were... inhuman? Unnatural? The setting, certainly, is very realistic - that's what the small poem at the beginning is all about.Noratav said:
Hamdo, too, seemed a fairly human character. Also, I never really thought of him as a bad guy so much - not that I'd call him a good guy, but rather that his insanity excused everything. That he had no understanding of why his actions could be wrong was what exonerates him. In fact, I'd say it's more Arbelia who's the "bad guy" - unlike Hamdo, she knows exactly what she's doing, the pointlessness of it, and the damage it will cause, but she does it anyway. Also, if it wasn't for her strong leadership Hamdo would've been unable to do anything.
Uh, neither side is good or evil. Both sides have nicer characters and real bastards on them. It's true that it's very anti-war, but hey.Noratav said:
Ramadahl said:
I've always assumed the poem was talking about the Sun's life span and what implications it has for the fragile nature of existance.
The implication is ever present that the world will soon end or become uninhabitable due to the heat. I think LaLaRu says it out right at one point.
Ark said:
Hmm, I always figured it meant something along the lines of... even if humanity exists for 10 billion years people will still remain people - that even if we were to meet them so far removed from us in time it would be with bittersweet fondness, as we would recognise both the good and bad parts of ourselves in them.
I've also heard a variation on this argued, that Shu is actually taken 10 billion years into the future, but the time interval is somewhat ephemeral as he's still in a world he can recognise.
I too got the impression that the world (pretty sure it's our world) would end soon due to the heat, but I didn't make the connection that you did.
"Because ten billion years' time is so fragile, so ephemeral...
it arouses such a bittersweet, almost heartbreaking fondness"
You could read so much into this short phrase but since the sun has an estimated potential life span of 10 billion (including the years already passed) I tend to stick with that. Also since there is an emphasis on the passing of time. As well as an emphasis on the sun in the series itself.
it arouses such a bittersweet, almost heartbreaking fondness"
You could read so much into this short phrase but since the sun has an estimated potential life span of 10 billion (including the years already passed) I tend to stick with that. Also since there is an emphasis on the passing of time. As well as an emphasis on the sun in the series itself.
Ramadahl said:
It's not the characters that make each side good or evil, it's the setting, the situation they find themselves in. As I said before the characterisation is excellent, that is the show's main strength. When, I say that the characters are human, I'm agreeing with you what you say about the morality of the characters! Even Hamdo, who is presented as completely insane is believable to a degree.
However, the fact he is insane does not alter the fact that Hellywood as a totality, as a cause of the war, is evil, and that the villagers as a group are good. Sure, there are good people fighting for Hellywood, and there are people in Zari Bars who desperately want revenge against Hellywood. But Hellywood is the malevolent aggressor and Zari Bars is the innocent victim. The fact that the characters on both sides act realistically and like normal people as a result is what makes the show, but one side is clearly right and the other clearly wrong. The show then uses this duality, to study how people react in a situation of war, but also to reinforce it's excessively strong anti-war message.