Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage characters
- Thread starter Ian Wolf
- Start date
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
They should take a look at the case in Sweden a few years back. Famed manga/anime fan and translator Simon Lundström was in court for possession of suspected child pornography manga back in 2009. He was first convicted in 2010 but then cleared in 2012. Read more at http://www.thelocal.se/20120615/41460 (no such images can be found at that link)
Ian Wolf said:
They should take a look at the case in Sweden a few years back. Famed manga/anime fan and translator Simon Lundström was in court for possession of suspected child pornography manga back in 2009. He was first convicted in 2010 but then cleared in 2012. Read more at http://www.thelocal.se/20120615/41460 (no such images can be found at that link)
kuuderes_shadow
Thousand Master
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
How do they even tell though? Unless it's a picture of a toddler or something...
Stuff like "they're in a school uniform" is a stupid argument. Someone being in a school uniform doesn't mean they're of school age, particularly when it comes to sexual imagery (and nor does someone being of school age mean that they are underage, for that matter).
Ian Wolf said:
How do they even tell though? Unless it's a picture of a toddler or something...
Stuff like "they're in a school uniform" is a stupid argument. Someone being in a school uniform doesn't mean they're of school age, particularly when it comes to sexual imagery (and nor does someone being of school age mean that they are underage, for that matter).
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
Hmmm...I wonder if this case was just the average high school girls we see in anime, or explicit loli stuff? I dunno...it's complicated and confusing, especially as things like High School DxD are available here, legally and uncut, with a 15 rating.
I'm mixed. On the one hand, there is the "Artistic freedom/not real kids" thing, but the judge did make a very good point:Ian Wolf said:
Although in regards to a conviction, it seems like he was basically convicted for potentially being at the start of a hypothetical slippery slope.
Hmmm...I wonder if this case was just the average high school girls we see in anime, or explicit loli stuff? I dunno...it's complicated and confusing, especially as things like High School DxD are available here, legally and uncut, with a 15 rating.
Speaking outside of the context that a lot of anime take place in high schools, isn't the whole "school uniform" thing a common fetish anyway? Wasn't there even a Britney Spears music video years ago where she wore a school uniform, despite being an adult?kuuderes_shadow said:
Shiroi Hane
Dragon Knight
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
Mangagamer claims all the characters in their games are over 18 but... for ImoPara for example, they're all in school. And being full blood siblings, the youngest is a minimum of, what, 3 years younger than the oldest?kuuderes_shadow said:
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
Some games, like the localised Senran Kagura games have been more coy with this, by omitting the characters' years of birth and by not specifically mentioning what stage of education the schools they go to are (although in the Japanese versions, these are clearly defined).Shiroi Hane said:
Rosencrantz
Dragon Knight
The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
I looked into this law a while back, basically it's what the Court decides is or is not an inappropriate image. Disclaimers claiming over 18 or arguments that a character is 400 years old etc count for nothing.
Sections 62-69 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 if anyone is interested
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/25/contents
Here's a bit from section 65
Anything rated by the BBFC is fine btw
Shiroi Hane said:
I looked into this law a while back, basically it's what the Court decides is or is not an inappropriate image. Disclaimers claiming over 18 or arguments that a character is 400 years old etc count for nothing.
Sections 62-69 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 if anyone is interested
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/25/contents
Here's a bit from section 65
Anything rated by the BBFC is fine btw
fabio de lunatico
Claymore
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
Not to mention that Japanese kids (like ours, now, right?) attend high school until the age of 18. Or could be repeating a year. Or that a fictional setting does not have to follow real-world logic and so, for example, in a fictional work high school could be mandatory until 21. Or role play, etc.
The BBFC passes hardcore live action porn set in "schools" where the performers wear (albeit temporarily, one imagines) uniforms, so clearly the presence of school uniforms and school settings itself is not illegal, which perhaps suggests that this guy was in possession of hardcore loli rather than explicit depictions of the typical well-developed high schooler.Joshawott said:
Not to mention that Japanese kids (like ours, now, right?) attend high school until the age of 18. Or could be repeating a year. Or that a fictional setting does not have to follow real-world logic and so, for example, in a fictional work high school could be mandatory until 21. Or role play, etc.
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
I think where this is dangerous is that there are no set guidelines (as far as I know?) for exactly what crosses the line which leaves interpretation of the specifics to the individual. There are some things the BBFC have let through quite happily which trigger all kinds of red flags to me, and the fact they've been certified means they're completely defensible. Yet with the vast majority of titles only available as imports (or streaming) it's very possible that there's a lot of content which could land the owner in hot water, especially with differing opinions on what constitutes an underage character in an abstract art style.
It's hard for people to understand where the lines are if they don't think of a particular character as being underaged and it's not blatantly abusive or creepy. I prefer to assume that this guy was busted for hardcore, really nasty material as it's the only thing that keeps me sane, but as he said, you can buy a lot of borderline stuff nowadays from mainstream stores like Amazon UK. How are you to know in advance whether something is ok or not, aside from presuming that the puritanical censors in the US are going by the same rulebook as those in the UK?
Dredging up an old example, that second of footage cut from Code Geass R2 in the UK was said to be risky because it encouraged interest in underaged sexual activity, simply because a flat-chested girl was standing in the background of a comical shot of one busty girl grabbing another. I would personally have thought the girl in the background would be the same age as the other two, or at least within a year - they were schoolmates - and nobody was having or planning to have any sexual contact at all in the scene. Yet it still fell foul of the censors and ended up being removed. The BBFC supposedly takes context into account and the fact that there was no reason given for the scene in the story meant that it was viewed negatively. Even so, I think it was an incredibly stupid cut and ignored any sensitivity towards the setting (it also annoys me that we're supposed to use the schoolboy logic that breasts are sex organs in the first place - but what do I know?).
On a tangent to this, having context in the story would have probably made it more exciting to me if I was the kind of person who cared about embarrassed flat-chested teenagers - out of context shots of boob-grabbing do absolutely nothing for me. I really don't understand the point of that cut.
The rules our country is working by don't make any sense.
R
I think where this is dangerous is that there are no set guidelines (as far as I know?) for exactly what crosses the line which leaves interpretation of the specifics to the individual. There are some things the BBFC have let through quite happily which trigger all kinds of red flags to me, and the fact they've been certified means they're completely defensible. Yet with the vast majority of titles only available as imports (or streaming) it's very possible that there's a lot of content which could land the owner in hot water, especially with differing opinions on what constitutes an underage character in an abstract art style.
It's hard for people to understand where the lines are if they don't think of a particular character as being underaged and it's not blatantly abusive or creepy. I prefer to assume that this guy was busted for hardcore, really nasty material as it's the only thing that keeps me sane, but as he said, you can buy a lot of borderline stuff nowadays from mainstream stores like Amazon UK. How are you to know in advance whether something is ok or not, aside from presuming that the puritanical censors in the US are going by the same rulebook as those in the UK?
Dredging up an old example, that second of footage cut from Code Geass R2 in the UK was said to be risky because it encouraged interest in underaged sexual activity, simply because a flat-chested girl was standing in the background of a comical shot of one busty girl grabbing another. I would personally have thought the girl in the background would be the same age as the other two, or at least within a year - they were schoolmates - and nobody was having or planning to have any sexual contact at all in the scene. Yet it still fell foul of the censors and ended up being removed. The BBFC supposedly takes context into account and the fact that there was no reason given for the scene in the story meant that it was viewed negatively. Even so, I think it was an incredibly stupid cut and ignored any sensitivity towards the setting (it also annoys me that we're supposed to use the schoolboy logic that breasts are sex organs in the first place - but what do I know?).
On a tangent to this, having context in the story would have probably made it more exciting to me if I was the kind of person who cared about embarrassed flat-chested teenagers - out of context shots of boob-grabbing do absolutely nothing for me. I really don't understand the point of that cut.
The rules our country is working by don't make any sense.
R
fabio de lunatico
Claymore
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
The guidelines are vague, and that what makes it such a horrendous, sinister piece of legislation. In addition to what Rozencrantz quoted of the act ("impression conveyed", pfft) there's also the "grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character" bit. All entirely subjective.
But it does its job in instilling so much fear and uncertainty that people might stay away from anything potentially dodgy just to be on the safe side.
The guidelines are vague, and that what makes it such a horrendous, sinister piece of legislation. In addition to what Rozencrantz quoted of the act ("impression conveyed", pfft) there's also the "grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character" bit. All entirely subjective.
But it does its job in instilling so much fear and uncertainty that people might stay away from anything potentially dodgy just to be on the safe side.
Lutga
Mad Scientist
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
In Japan, isn't there an exemption over anime and manga for exactly this reason? A whole industry is founded on imagery like this.
It'd be like us banning Eastenders because it apparently encouraged domestic violence or something like that.
In Japan, isn't there an exemption over anime and manga for exactly this reason? A whole industry is founded on imagery like this.
It'd be like us banning Eastenders because it apparently encouraged domestic violence or something like that.
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
Lutga: Eastenders also promotes underaged sexual activity too; if the BBFC can't deal with vague allusions to seeing one girl touching another's skin then the hotbed of teen pregnancy and abuse that features in the average episode of a soap must be far worse.
They're trying to clamp down on things in Japan too (which is to some extent understandable, as some creators are deliberately pushing the bounds of decency beyond anything that could be considered reasonable and few attempts are made to keep it out of the hands of younger people). Of course, censorship is being applied completely inconsistently there too, leading to a lot of heated debate.
It sounds as though Sweden is the best place for sensible discourse.
I think anyone who shows even the slightest hint of abusive activity towards actual children should be dealt with swiftly, but thoughtcrime shouldn't be cause for a conviction. And if it is, they should bally well be arresting the entirety of certain unnamed online picture-sharing sites who provide the material long before cracking down on individuals who stumble upon it.
Ironically, actually enforcing copyright law instead of ignoring it completely on the grounds that foreigners can't complain about the theft of their work would make it harder for people to accidentally come across illegal scans of doujinshi and commercial erotica in the first place, limiting the opportunities for innocent British guys to be corrupted by the insidious content Japan produces.
Isn't lowering the number of potential future offenders by chasing people who have committed actual crimes a more productive use of their time than making up new ones?
R
Lutga: Eastenders also promotes underaged sexual activity too; if the BBFC can't deal with vague allusions to seeing one girl touching another's skin then the hotbed of teen pregnancy and abuse that features in the average episode of a soap must be far worse.
They're trying to clamp down on things in Japan too (which is to some extent understandable, as some creators are deliberately pushing the bounds of decency beyond anything that could be considered reasonable and few attempts are made to keep it out of the hands of younger people). Of course, censorship is being applied completely inconsistently there too, leading to a lot of heated debate.
It sounds as though Sweden is the best place for sensible discourse.
I think anyone who shows even the slightest hint of abusive activity towards actual children should be dealt with swiftly, but thoughtcrime shouldn't be cause for a conviction. And if it is, they should bally well be arresting the entirety of certain unnamed online picture-sharing sites who provide the material long before cracking down on individuals who stumble upon it.
Ironically, actually enforcing copyright law instead of ignoring it completely on the grounds that foreigners can't complain about the theft of their work would make it harder for people to accidentally come across illegal scans of doujinshi and commercial erotica in the first place, limiting the opportunities for innocent British guys to be corrupted by the insidious content Japan produces.
Isn't lowering the number of potential future offenders by chasing people who have committed actual crimes a more productive use of their time than making up new ones?
R
Lutga
Mad Scientist
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
I do think it poses a much wider philosophical question as to just how far a visual representation of something relates to the real thing. How realistic does a drawing/CGI model have to be before it becomes 'realistic'?
I'm sure you could extrapolate a whole load of examples ie. if a drawing happened to be drawn particularly well it suddenly becomes 'dodgy' as opposed to some chibi sketch knocked out in 5 minutes in pencil and not coloured in.
And what about those people that put Hatsune Miku into an Oculus Rift so they could have 'interactions' with her?
I do think it poses a much wider philosophical question as to just how far a visual representation of something relates to the real thing. How realistic does a drawing/CGI model have to be before it becomes 'realistic'?
I'm sure you could extrapolate a whole load of examples ie. if a drawing happened to be drawn particularly well it suddenly becomes 'dodgy' as opposed to some chibi sketch knocked out in 5 minutes in pencil and not coloured in.
And what about those people that put Hatsune Miku into an Oculus Rift so they could have 'interactions' with her?
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
I haven't read the original source, but I thought it was interesting that the ANN version of the story suggests the convictee was a repeat offender, having previously been arrested for creating some kind of 3D CG images. One wonders if the previous offense had any bearing on what was deemed inappropriate this time round.
I haven't read the original source, but I thought it was interesting that the ANN version of the story suggests the convictee was a repeat offender, having previously been arrested for creating some kind of 3D CG images. One wonders if the previous offense had any bearing on what was deemed inappropriate this time round.
Re: The News Thread (for news that does not need a thread)
Although even if the material was loli/shota, an interesting (and no doubt highly controversial) point was raised in the discussion with said friend: Sadly, there are people out there who are naturally sexuality attracted to prepubescents and can't help it. The majority of these people will know that it's both morally and legally wrong to act on such urges, so they won't and run the risk of these feelings building up until bursting point, which could then put real children in danger.
I would be interested in seeing if there has been any studies conducted that investigate whether there is a correlation between access to loli/shota material and a rise in sexual crimes committed against children. There will no doubt be some people who like the judge speculated, might see such material and feel that it is normally acceptable, but I would actually question whether there are more people who sadly, do have a natural sexual attraction to prepubescents, but use such fictional material as a way of letting off steam without harming an actual child.
You mean the uncut 15 that was released in the UK twice and was able to air on TV with only a single scene removed? =3Lutga said:
I was talking with a friend last night and we came to a similar conclusion - that it must have been loli or shota. However, the only statements we've been given on the material have been vague and we are still being left in the dark about whether this relates to material featuring prepubescents or characters simply deemed to be under the age of consent. I think that such a distinction is absolutely necessary.fabricatedlunatic said:
Although even if the material was loli/shota, an interesting (and no doubt highly controversial) point was raised in the discussion with said friend: Sadly, there are people out there who are naturally sexuality attracted to prepubescents and can't help it. The majority of these people will know that it's both morally and legally wrong to act on such urges, so they won't and run the risk of these feelings building up until bursting point, which could then put real children in danger.
I would be interested in seeing if there has been any studies conducted that investigate whether there is a correlation between access to loli/shota material and a rise in sexual crimes committed against children. There will no doubt be some people who like the judge speculated, might see such material and feel that it is normally acceptable, but I would actually question whether there are more people who sadly, do have a natural sexual attraction to prepubescents, but use such fictional material as a way of letting off steam without harming an actual child.
Lutga
Mad Scientist
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
See also No Game No Life where Shiro is clearly identified as being only 11 hears old, yet is introduced with a panty shot. This stuff is so commonplace in mainstream anime, it just seems bizarre that a judge would single this case out.
See also No Game No Life where Shiro is clearly identified as being only 11 hears old, yet is introduced with a panty shot. This stuff is so commonplace in mainstream anime, it just seems bizarre that a judge would single this case out.
Shiroi Hane
Dragon Knight
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
I don't see that minor upskirt being a problem (it wasn't a lingering closeup or anything) especially with 11-year-old Francesca running around in Strike Witches. We're definitely talking something a lot more hardcore.
I don't see that minor upskirt being a problem (it wasn't a lingering closeup or anything) especially with 11-year-old Francesca running around in Strike Witches. We're definitely talking something a lot more hardcore.
Re: Man convicted for possessing pictures of underage charac
The problem with the argument that paedophiles cannot help their urges is it risks opening a pretty big can of worms. It is, after all, the same argument that rapists of all kinds use. Brimming over with sexual desire for a specific celebrity or friend is a real problem some people have, but it's no excuse for them to act out those urges and they're expected to be able to control themselves, not become rapists (or even worse - it's the logic used by Elliot Rodger to give him an excuse to drive around committing serial murders, after all).
If a lolicon can be prevented from becoming an actual criminal by looking at obscene 2D art, that's great, but where do you draw the line? Is it ok to make real-life porn of juvenile-looking girls to appease people whose peadophillic urges cannot be satisfied by 2D lolicon material to stop them running rampage? Is it ok to give people who want to spend more money extra financial allowances to stop them stealing it? At some point, adults have a responsibility to avoid ruining the lives of others in their quest for personal satisfaction.
While making specialist pornography for those with niche fetishes is almost certainly instrumental in keeping some of them satisfied and out of trouble (I'd have no idea how to even begin quantifying this in a study), I think that worrying about whether they would go around raping children if they aren't catered for undermines the core argument. We're supposed to be better than that, and I'd argue that someone who felt they had no recourse but to abuse real children has problems which need more support than simply allowing them to channel those urges elsewhere.
R
The problem with the argument that paedophiles cannot help their urges is it risks opening a pretty big can of worms. It is, after all, the same argument that rapists of all kinds use. Brimming over with sexual desire for a specific celebrity or friend is a real problem some people have, but it's no excuse for them to act out those urges and they're expected to be able to control themselves, not become rapists (or even worse - it's the logic used by Elliot Rodger to give him an excuse to drive around committing serial murders, after all).
If a lolicon can be prevented from becoming an actual criminal by looking at obscene 2D art, that's great, but where do you draw the line? Is it ok to make real-life porn of juvenile-looking girls to appease people whose peadophillic urges cannot be satisfied by 2D lolicon material to stop them running rampage? Is it ok to give people who want to spend more money extra financial allowances to stop them stealing it? At some point, adults have a responsibility to avoid ruining the lives of others in their quest for personal satisfaction.
While making specialist pornography for those with niche fetishes is almost certainly instrumental in keeping some of them satisfied and out of trouble (I'd have no idea how to even begin quantifying this in a study), I think that worrying about whether they would go around raping children if they aren't catered for undermines the core argument. We're supposed to be better than that, and I'd argue that someone who felt they had no recourse but to abuse real children has problems which need more support than simply allowing them to channel those urges elsewhere.
R