Fansub Debate - Again!

[melonpan]

Over the past few weeks, there have been some new articles/views put forward by people, that put across some different opinions on the matter - all of which as far as I can see have never been put forward in a discussion on this forum, so I'll post a selection of some of the comments here so you can all see what I'm talking about:

In response to the thread created on the AnimeOnDVD forums - on the recent piece of news about someone from GDH lecturing about how fansubs are evil here :

This is expected and in a few years this will all be meaningless arguments.

I remember a movie with Danny de Vito that really put it best...he was a business man who bought this factory for the land and wanted to tear it down as the land was worth alot. There was a woman he was having an affair with and she eventually came to rep the workers who did not want to loose their jobs.

In the movie they both give speechs to the workers and Danny's was the best. In it he says "There was a time when there were many buggy whip companies. They made lots of money and employed many. As the buggy got replaced by the car, more and more buggy whip companies went out of business and I am sure the best buggy whip company fought to the end but eventually went out if business. Did those companies do any justice to their employees by trying to keep a company based on a model that will go out of business. No. Neither will I and you need to go and find a new business skill to make money."

It is kind of like in my office where everyone wants to learn Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio. They believe it will keep them in work longer. Just like Desktop pubishing and all the great skills of the past where anyone and everyone has an idea how to do it now. My daughter who is 12 learns it in school and now in a few years 12 years old will learn how to edit and make their own videos.

The problem is that he is directing his anger at the wrong group. The real problem is not the pirates but the computer industry. The computer industry is constantly in future shock. Every year though they need to keep upgrading and buy more equipment. Lets face it, do you really need a new word processor or spreadhseet, you computer is more than fine now for music...so which industry shall we canabalize next. Lets see....the video industry. They know they are making it easy for people to download and pirate. They do not care, they need for you to buy that new 1 terrabyte drive and the new video card and processor to play it faster. So put the blame where it belongs.

-Js

The response from Chris Beveridge (assumed - as it's posted on his website) to this editorial on AnimeNewsNetwork: (because the editorial is too long to post, and the response from Chris is not linkable)

Let me say it even more clearly. What he says, I agree with. I endorse it, I promote it, I believe it.

The anime industry has what is its last chance to take advantage of the history as seen via the RIAA and MPAA and do things right. This really isn't about the US anime industry but rather the Japanese one. They. Must. Change.

This is an opportunity for fansub groups to come in out of the cold in a sense as well. If the Japanese firms can be convinced that their best recourse for a profitable future business model is to stream their shows, subtitled in various languages of choice, via either small pay subscription or advertising (i.e. TV Tokyo truly becomes an international net channel), the better of the groups out there could turn their hobby and passion into a business. And trust me, no business is better than one that you absolutely love. And I love this business and hobby. With as many shows as there are out there and as many good translation groups as there are, this could be a rather large boom across multiple languages and countries that will generate untold numbers of new fans.

This model however won't achieve proper saturation until technology changes. The day that I can, for example, turn on my TV and via Tivo or some other service, access whatever shows that I want from TV Tokyo or WOWOW streamed directly to my set, it will be limited. But this is a generational change as the under 18 kids of today will be growing up with very different perceptions and understandings of technology.

And through all of these changes, the viability of packaged media will continue as well. The idea of changing anime distribution to one where you can see it for free/advertising supported means still means that a lot of people will want to own it. And there will always be a market for taking the shows and putting them in an English language format. What offering it in streamed form, particularly with even a non-pay subscription format, is that it provides an immense amount of realtime statistics about who is watching what. Whether it's the possibility of classics becoming revived or niche shows showing that there is a far larger market than previously though, it's a giant data mine for the Japanese companies.

But their time is starting to run out. I believe in the medium. I love the hobby. I know so many people inside and outside the industry that feel the same way. But change has to come from the Japanese. Pressure can come from the outside however, and that's where things have to really push right now as well. Can fansub groups take this idea and run with it, legitimizing what they do and possibly making it a real job with cash inflow? The nature of the Internet is leaving this model open to them right now and hopefully they can run with it and change the entire course of the industry for the better.

Kind of puts a different spin on things, doesn't it?

 

[Ramadahl]

Kind of puts a different spin on things, doesn't it?

Yeah.
More people are starting to realise that saying people are naughty for using fansubs and prosecuting the odd one here or there isn't going to cut it anymore. If the industry wants to beat fansubs, they're going to have to change their business model in a big way. Because at the moment, they're losing against fansubs on a number of issues - speed and cost being the main two, and even on the issue of quality there's not a clear winner. Unfortunately, distribution companies outside Japan are very limited in what they can do by the Japanese companies...

 

[Jaymii]

I read most of that AoD thread last night, And I have to say, It is very interesting. I can't say anything that hasn't already be said that'll add to it. If you haven't read it all already, read it now! Srsly.

 

[CitizenGeek]

on the recent piece of news about someone from GDH lecturing about how fansubs are evil

This kind of attitude is what I've come to expect from certain folks around here. The GDH staffer simply likened illegally downloading anime to stealing an iPhone the day before it's released. It wasn't "lecturing", he never used the word, or anything even remotely as strong as, "evil" - but you've put that pro-fansub spin on it.

The bottom line is; It's the fansubbers and the people who download illegally that are causing this problem. Yes, it's unrealistic to assume that we wouldn't take stuff for free, without any consequences, but what fansubbers are doing is both wrong and illegal and is the reason anime companies in the US are struggling to break even, never mind make a profit, while Japanese studios are finding it harder and harder to make profits themselves. It's the fansubbers that are wrong, it's the people abuse the internet that are wrong, not the manufacturers of computers. I understand the solution is not to prosecute fansubbers (that's unrealistic) but shifting the blame for the demise of the anime industry from fansubbers is absurd and it frustrates me to see people like melonpan warping the industry's founded concerns into "lectures against evil", trying to undermine said concerns.

 

[McIcy]

If it wasn't for fansubs I'd have never become the fan I am today and wouldn't have bought so many dvd's as I wouldn't have wanted to chance the expense on a series I hadn't seen yet

 

[Jaymii]

Its also not just the fansubbers fault, Its more to the fault of the people who make the RAWs (granted fansubbers sometimes do this themselves).

If who-ever couldn't get the RAWs they wanted then there would never be any problem in the first place. But, because people want stuff soon after its aired or because they have missed the episode when it originally aired, Whatever it is, English - Japanese - French. People can get a hold of it, with pretty good ease. Now fansubbers can Fansub.

Just saying, People mention the fansubbers, but never mention about the people who know the language and can just download the raws.

I don't know how to end this post, So I shall do it now. . . . =P

 

[melonpan]

on the recent piece of news about someone from GDH lecturing about how fansubs are evil

This kind of attitude is what I've come to expect from certain folks around here. The GDH staffer simply likened illegally downloading anime to stealing an iPhone the day before it's released. It wasn't "lecturing", he never used the word, or anything even remotely as strong as, "evil" - but you've put that pro-fansub spin on it.

Well, to be honest, it was late at night and I couldn't be bothered to trail through the interview to read over exactly what he meant. Yes, I guess I put a spin on it somewhat, but that was how I was feeling at the time. I got the general 'jist' of what he meant, as so many other 'big players' in the industry all blabber on about the exact same thing, and what it really boils down to is them putting the blame on something that they can't handle and don't want to take responsibility for - (yet).

I don't appreciate being put into your whole stereotyping of certain people with certain views around here ideology - if you've got a problem with any of my opinions then challenge me about them. (Or just read through the articles and views presented in the links I posted, because I pretty much agree with it all).

 

[Paul]

on the recent piece of news about someone from GDH lecturing about how fansubs are evil

This kind of attitude is what I've come to expect from certain folks around here. The GDH staffer simply likened illegally downloading anime to stealing an iPhone the day before it's released. It wasn't "lecturing", he never used the word, or anything even remotely as strong as, "evil" - but you've put that pro-fansub spin on it.

The bottom line is; It's the fansubbers and the people who download illegally that are causing this problem. Yes, it's unrealistic to assume that we wouldn't take stuff for free, without any consequences, but what fansubbers are doing is both wrong and illegal and is the reason anime companies in the US are struggling to break even, never mind make a profit, while Japanese studios are finding it harder and harder to make profits themselves. It's the fansubbers that are wrong, it's the people abuse the internet that are wrong, not the manufacturers of computers. I understand the solution is not to prosecute fansubbers (that's unrealistic) but shifting the blame for the demise of the anime industry from fansubbers is absurd and it frustrates me to see people like melonpan warping the industry's founded concerns into "lectures against evil", trying to undermine said concerns.

No, I'm sorry, there no way of hiding from the fact that the anime industry stemming from Japan has shown an utter ineptitude in attempting to deal with this so-called disaster and the blame for all this lies at their table; essentially, it's a problem that's been brewing for the better part of a decade and reached another level when Naruto started airing and brought in a whole new wave of fans (myself included). It's completely useless trying to blame the fans and the fansubbers when we've all been raised in this fansub culture; indeed, this site wouldn't even exist if not for fansubs because I wouldn't be an anime fan. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese companies have done next to nothing about this and until they offer a viable alternative to fansubs (i.e. we get to see subtitled anime days (if not hours) after it airs in Japan) it's only going to get worse. The old industry and your way of thinking is out-dated and frankly, dead. Time to embrace the future.

Edit: Sorry if that seemed harsh. I've been following this fansub thing all weekend.

 

[CitizenGeek]

No, I'm sorry, there no way of hiding from the fact that the anime industry stemming from Japan has shown an utter ineptitude in attempting to deal with this so-called disaster and the blame for all this lies at their table; essentially, it's a problem that's been brewing for the better part of a decade and reached another level when Naruto started airing and brought in a whole new wave of fans (myself included). It's completely useless trying to blame the fans and the fansubbers when we've all been raised in this fansub culture; indeed, this site wouldn't even exist if not for fansubs because I wouldn't be an anime fan. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese companies have done next to nothing about this and until they offer a viable alternative to fansubs (i.e. we get to see subtitled anime days (if not hours) after it airs in Japan) it's only going to get worse. The old industry and your way of thinking is out-dated and frankly, dead. Time to embrace the future.

I agree with you, totally. Overtly traditional Japanese companies have failed to block fansubbers. What I don't agree with is the legitimising of fansubs and fansubbers. Japanese companies have failed to stop this, but that does not make fansubs okay or any less illegal or any less destructive. It's like saying "Well, that was robbed, but the police didn't catch the burglar, so it's their fault not the thief's".

"Fansub culture" has done good things for anime, yes, but it's now leading to it's demise.

 

[Arbalest]

Read through them and they are really interesting. The thing i think is, companies need to get the idea into their heads that, they could use the fact that the internet is being used to show these shows to their advantage. I would think it would be a great idea for them to cash in on people worldwide watching anime online, and with the fact that there is more and more fans of anime each year, the demand for more is there too. It may still mean DVD and related sales will be down, but at least they will have another way to make some profit on their shows.
For myself, i don't see it changing what i do, which is watch a particular show, then buy it after it gets a release, it will just mean i'm subscribed to watch anime online through whatever streaming they may put up if they ever decided to do so.

 

[Fudce]

It isn't a problem you can simply point a finger and say "They're to blame".

- The Japanese companies are to blame because they failed to see the issue becoming this big, and are only now realising that it's a problem
- The RAW uploaders are to blame because they are taking something that isn't theirs, and giving it away free of charge without permission
- The Subbers are to blame because they are making those raws available in a format that even more people can use, while still not giving anything back to the content owners.
- The Downloaders are to blame, since they are taking something and not paying for it. Yes, a few do commit to purchase the moment they download something, but many more don't, and view downloads as a 'free preview', or worse.

The US companies can't be blamed for this, as there isn't much they can do. They can only release things so fast, and with a minimum of three month turnaround on even the quickest/newest series, the downloaders will have had their cake and forgotten about it, without paying.

Anime dub Voice Actor, and writer George Manley had the best idea, with Japanese companies working in conjunction with the US companies to offer near-simultaneous US and JP DVD or TV releases of the series. Yet this would completely change a market that the Japanese Industry is only just beginning to realise needs change. People are still hesitant, and with that hesitation comes more and more grief.

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Remember that anime is not a right, it is a priviledge. A consumer good. It is a product to be paid for, be that through DVD sales, TV advertising revenue, merchandising, or other means. Nothing in this world is truely free, and even taking what looks like a free 'fansub' has a cost, only this time the price may just be more than you bargained for....

 

[melonpan]

What company would not want to cash in on the ridiculous amount of downloads Naruto and Bleach get, nearly 900,000 downloads for the first two episodes of Naruto Shippuuden, and nearly 600,000 for a lot of Bleach episodes... Approximately 100,000,000 downloads in total for the fansub group we all know I'm talking about.

It seems utterly ridiculous that even after years of this fansub group doing this - and download numbers increasing rapidly day by day - that no company has taken advantage of this in a proper fashion... it's beyond stupidity really, isn't it?

I'm glad that the issue is back up in the air now, with all these people putting in their opinions. I had come to a dead-end with my own conclusions, they never felt like a finished opinion for me, but now with all this it all fits together. =)

Just to mention as well, the fansub group I'm talking about has done absolutely zero advertising... and uses a technology (bittorent) that a lot of people wouldn't know how to use (well, I say that but I'm sure it's not too hard for people who've got little to no experience with a computer).
Just think of the possibilities that it could make if this had proper advertising, £1 an episode wouldn't be too much to ask for would it? And that would make a hell of a lot of money if it got to the stage where the fansub group I'm talking about has got to. Or free even - there are tons of websites that offer free things but seem to make an awful lot of money from it (youtube etc).

 

[melonpan]

- The Japanese companies are to blame because they failed to see the issue becoming this big, and are only now realising that it's a problem
- The RAW uploaders are to blame because they are taking something that isn't theirs, and giving it away free of charge without permission
- The Subbers are to blame because they are making those raws available in a format that even more people can use, while still not giving anything back to the content owners.
- The Downloaders are to blame, since they are taking something and not paying for it. Yes, a few do commit to purchase the moment they download something, but many more don't, and view downloads as a 'free preview', or worse.

Nice post here, if you look down the list it's like a chain of events really. Japanese companies produce the content, Raw uploaders... upload, subbers sub, downloaders download.

The Japanese producers should work hard on destroying the Japanese P2P network if they really wanted to solve their "problem", I've read in various places that they have got past the 'untraceable' security that 'Winny' and 'Share' supposedly have, but now there's yet another one - 'Perfect Dark' that's being developed.

The problem here is like the English speaking world's Kazaa/Limewire/WinMX etc. WinMX got shut down though, so there's no reason why the Japanese ones can't be shut down.

It seems that if you break the chain in your 'list', the ones below will stop as well.

I guess you have to take the stance that people will always upload and people will always download - if there's a way to do it, and especially if there is no access to a legal version of what they're downloading - in their country, which is sadly the case in a lot of countries.

The way forward does seem that the one at the top of your list needs to change, or if they provide the ones underneath.

I just put my points down randomly as they came to me as this is a pretty massive topic to write every aspect of. : o

 

[Taylor]

I do agree because of fansubs the companys loose money, but its good for some people (like me) who cant afford to buy anime can still watch episodes.
I havent read everything on this post as its nearly 11 o'clock and im tired, so nighty night from me!

 

[Wildcard]

It's completely useless trying to blame the fans and the fansubbers when we've all been raised in this fansub culture; indeed, this site wouldn't even exist if not for fansubs because I wouldn't be an anime fan.

Same, here. I'm certain that if I hadn't seen a fansub of Hellsing several years back then I wouldn't be an anime fan anyway. Regardless of the moral issues, and whether people buy these shows, theres no denying how many people get into anime through fansubs.

One way or another, the industry needs to figure out some kind of new system.

 

[McIcy]

It's completely useless trying to blame the fans and the fansubbers when we've all been raised in this fansub culture; indeed, this site wouldn't even exist if not for fansubs because I wouldn't be an anime fan.

Same, here. I'm certain that if I hadn't seen a fansub of Hellsing several years back then I wouldn't be an anime fan anyway. Regardless of the moral issues, and whether people buy these shows, theres no denying how many people get into anime through fansubs.

One way or another, the industry needs to figure out some kind of new system.

Amen, fansubs were my only way to watch anime when I was younger, there was no way I could afford to buy series let alone risk £20 on a dvd of something I had never seen in the hope it would be something I would like to watch it.

 

[Dracos]

I don't do fansubs myself but I am old enough to remember friends getting fansubbed videos probably 15-20 years ago so it is nothing really very new.

As for a solution how about as mentioned possible legal routes for producing this stuff. What about some kind of partnership between Japanese studios and fansub groups. If the studios don't have the time or manpower to translate things into untold languages they can use the fansub groups willingness to do it for them.

Just hand over materials ahead of airing on Japanese TV to give the fansub producers time to do a good job and release it not long after airing. They can then upload it to something equivalent to iTunes store shared by the Japanese studios and the fansubbers. They could have several models by which to pay for content, a subscription service for, a fee you can watch as many episodes of whatever you want to watch each month but can’t download anything, for people that don’t want to pay anything they could have the same supported by advertising say every episode you have to sit through a couple of minutes of adverts at the beginning middle and end that you cant just skip. And finally a download service by which you pay per episode you download, which you can then watch on you PC, iPod, Archos or whatever. Then all they have to decide is a fair split of the money for the content, production work and hosting.

I am sure there is a way it can be done but as usual someone will want to take charge or will upset things when they demand a bigger cut because they feel whatever they brought to the table was worth the most.

 

[Ryo Chan]

I don't do fansubs myself but I am old enough to remember friends getting fansubbed videos probably 15-20 years ago so it is nothing really very new.

they had that capability back then?

it was hard enough copying a game onto a floppy disk back then XD

 

[Dracos]

Yep I am sure some of the Urusei Yatsura I borrowed off a friend 14+ years ago was of a fansub style. I think the common thing was to send off a blank video and some cash to someone in the know and you would get a copy of whatever was available. The ability to put subtitles onto videos has been around for ages a friend of mine from Uni bought an old subtitler about 14 years ago when I was at uni with him, infact it was the same type as the uni used in the night club to put messages up over videos on the screens.