Valvrave: The Liberator

Arbalest

黒い剣士
Moderator
Right, since the latest episode has caused quite the stir, i thought it was finally about damned time we got a thread dedicated to Valvrave out there. We'll spoiler up the latest episode details for now to avoid any spoilers for those starting it or interested.

So is it any good and is it worth your time? I honestly think it has a pretty typical Sunrise-esque first episode, pretty straight forward, and then you get the end of the episode, and things get spiced up. From there, it turns into a series of twists and craziness you wouldn't expect. It's essentially like Sunrise have taken all their denied ideas and thrown it all into this one series. Surprisingly, it works pretty well. The mecha segments are good fun to watch as well, and the opening is pretty amazing.


EDIT: To quickly note. Aths post is out of order here because when i moved the posts over, the starting post for this topic got moved down, so i had to quickly "move" them out of order, so the time stamp is a bit off. it should be before Ruis, but there we go. Just in case you wonder how ilmae quotes him before he posted. My bad for not fully grasping the move tools just yet
 
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Valvrave ep 10 spoilers below, in the form of a directionless ramble.

I get the impression that my response to the scene is going to be unpopular, but now the shock is subsiding I think it was a powerful twist which could open things up in future. I agree with Ath that there was a level of detachment in the execution of the scene; if I'd cared more for Saki or had a better handle on what makes her tick my impressions might have been different.

However, as it is I feel terrible for Shouko, Haruto, and, of course, for Saki, but I'm hopeful that it's going to be handled appropriately. There are so many directions it can go in and some hints from the scene made me feel I understood Saki's feelings better than I had before. People seem to be reacting to it in a multitude of ways e.g. "she just accepted it because she couldn't fight back" or "her character is ruined" or the more questionable "she liked him anyway so she didn't mind". I'm not so sure. There's a lot going on in that girl's head and I didn't read her reactions in any of those ways.

I also feel that focusing entirely on Saki is a mistake. The computer system seemed to be actively controlling Haruto, making him a victim too - not good when Saki has already been undermining his character for her own foolish reasons before this happened. The episode was stressing this with the cuts between him and Shouko at the time, but most online discussions I've seen seem to be ignoring the abuse he's suffered too. I wonder how different some of the reactions might be if the characters' roles had been reversed? I can't help but think back to the glimpse of the 'future' we saw in an earlier episode.

Lastly, part of me is a little, uh, relieved that the kamitsuki stuff is being presented as genuinely awful and dehumanising. It's sad but death and sacrificing a person's humanity didn't seem to make people see it as anything other than a cool power up, which makes Haruto's anguish at his condition cringeworthy and melodramatic. The show is outrageously goofy at times but it's also mixed in some heavier material right from the start, and it's that which keeps me interested - it's a war, after all, and people are dying. The lack of heavy content in other shows with a similar background can really discourage me, as uncomfortable as it is to watch.


R
 
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Well then.

Valvrave e.10...

So, first a bit from Ath that I agree with:

"I think for a series to introduce rape as a plot device, it has to be damn well good enough dramatically to handle everything it entails with care. As much as I've enjoyed Valvrave for the first 9 episodes, there's no way in hell Valvrave had earnt that in my opinion."

But I would have two provisos: I think even just to portray a serious consensual sex scene and expect us to care about the emotional fallout from that is a bit enough undertaking for a show like this - the fact that they decided to venture into the territory of rape was a bit of a mind-boggling step up the ladder. That said, I think it is fine for the show to "earn it" in the way it follows up the incident, and I am hopeful for the next couple of weeks.

And something from Rui:

"if I'd cared more for Saki or had a better handle on what makes her tick my impressions might have been different."

I love Saki, I think she has been far more delicately portrayed than almost all the other characters. And I don't think her rather ambivalently portrayed reaction to events was out of character at all. I think it would be egregiously egotistical of me to attempt to rationalize it, but I think that she has probably convinced herself of the... I want to say something like "inevitability" of what happened, but that isn't the right word. Anyway, whatever she has convinced herself of, I expect the fact that she is removing herself from the full actuality of what happened to present an increasing strain on her emotional and psychological health, and this is what I am looking for them to handle suitably over the coming weeks to convince me that I'm right in thinking this was an episode which only raised the show higher, rather than bringing it crashing down.

The introduction to being a Valvrave pilot is quite straight-forward - "Give up on being human?" - and I wonder how much this mitigates the sympathy we should have for any of the pilots, but ultimately the parasitic way the system has taken over Haruto's body can only be viewed tragically as far as I'm concerned, and I think we'll see the pressure of what's happened tell on him more obviously than Saki at first.

The first fictional touchstone I thought back to while watching this episode was the sixth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I think by that point in time Buffy herself had become an extremely controversial figure, certainly not universally loved in the fandom as she was during the early seasons. But Buffy's psychological ambiguity and at times terrifyingly inhuman emotional vectors drove the show to its absolute heights for me, and whilst I would be amazed if Valvrave was able to use Saki as a catalyst to tell such strong stories, I wouldn't be surprised if it gave it a good go from here on out.
 
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Heh, c&p from chat re: Valv 10, just because (also small Gundam SEED spoilers):

(01:54:30) Arbalest: So
(01:54:33) Arbalest: i see what happened
(01:54:37) ilmaestro: (01:39:53) Rui: It's about a cool guy called L-Elf running around being cool
(01:54:45) ilmaestro: there hasn't really been enough of this of late
(01:54:48) Arbalest: and to think they've been pushing that idea for about.....5 episodes?
(01:55:12) ilmaestro: well
(01:55:14) ilmaestro: sort of
(01:55:23) Arbalest: not really sort of
(01:55:32) ilmaestro: only sort of
(01:55:42) ilmaestro: the show has not been serious enough to be genuinely pushing that idea
(01:56:09) ilmaestro: i actually sort of half stood up and reached my hand out towards the screen to stop them
(01:56:11) Arbalest: hmm
(01:56:34) Arbalest: i actually wouldn't put it past them
(01:56:36) Arbalest: honestly
(01:56:44) ilmaestro: if you actually thought that this episode would ever really happen in the show, you are both crazy and amazing
(01:57:03) ilmaestro: it's not like we're watching HBO
(01:57:14) ilmaestro: this felt like a very rare episode of anime
(01:57:34) Arbalest: well no, i wouldn't. because everytime it's happened outside this episode, he's made a leap for a guy, and usually always to bite
(01:57:51) Arbalest: never once until this ep did he go for a woman
(01:57:54) ilmaestro: if you thought they would metaphorically make this episode
(01:57:58) Arbalest: because they set it up as such
(01:58:08) ilmaestro: just with the biting/body jacking, i can agree
(01:58:21) Arbalest: do i agree with putting it into the episode?
(01:58:25) Arbalest: that's a debate in itself
(01:58:42) Arbalest: i think i get why though
(01:58:49) Arbalest: but not sure i agree with it
(02:04:54) ilmaestro:
(01:58:21) Arbalest: do i agree with putting it into the episode?(01:58:25) Arbalest: that's a debate in itself
(02:04:56) ilmaestro: definitely
(02:05:07) Arbalest: basically
(02:05:08) Arbalest: i get why
(02:05:26) ilmaestro: i *think* i do
(02:05:34) ilmaestro: i just hope it's not because they knew this would get a bigger reaction
(02:05:38) Arbalest: the VVVI is unique, it basically is learning. Whoeever it takes control of, it learns through them. So when Saki and Haruto shared that kiss, it thought "Sex?"
(02:05:49) Arbalest: after it evolved into nothing, it probably tried to force it
(02:05:59) Arbalest: hence the more frequent "attacks"
(02:06:21) Arbalest: and also why it brought it up when L-Elf and thingamy checked the system out
(02:06:31) Arbalest: it became obsessed with the idea
(02:10:48) ilmaestro: oh you mean why in the show, sure
(02:10:56) Arbalest: why otherwise?
(02:11:03) Arbalest: i don't know
(02:11:06) ilmaestro: like, why do it from an out-of-show perspective
(02:11:16) ilmaestro: ie. why would you put this in your anime
(02:11:53) ilmaestro: i agree with you in-show, the v1 system woman doesn't think she's doing anything wrong
(02:11:53) Arbalest: i'm not really sure what kind of answer we will get for that
(02:12:59) Arbalest: For a show i'd place as fairly tame, they where pretty vivid with it
(02:13:10) Arbalest: actually
(02:13:15) Arbalest: screw that, that's not accurate
(02:13:18) Arbalest: it was vivid
(02:13:21) Arbalest: but it's not that tame
(02:13:22) Arbalest: there we go
(02:14:44) ilmaestro: aina's arm was pretty... whoa
(02:14:53) ilmaestro: but i was surprised how candid they were this week
(02:14:54) Arbalest: indeed
(02:15:19) ilmaestro: i think my point is there's an alternate version of this show out there, where "that scene" is far less brutal, at least phsyically
(02:15:22) Arbalest: it's not OVA level of vivid, but i think it's probably the most you can get on a TV show, for that kind of thing
(02:15:27) ilmaestro: ^^spellunk
(02:15:56) ilmaestro: where, for example, rather than forcing haruto to rape saki, the system controls him into seducing shoko and having consensual sex
(02:16:19) Arbalest: i did consider the idea of something happening with it and a scene with shoko
(02:16:20) Arbalest: i won't lie
(02:16:27) Arbalest: saki? maybe i should've seen it happen
(02:17:19) ilmaestro: which is somewhere close to the same level of emotional tragedy, in that haruto is still being psychologically abused by the system and ultimately shoko will be devasted when she finds out what really happened
(02:17:27) ilmaestro: but it's less "obviously" controversial
(02:17:58) Arbalest: see, that's the thing. The only one i think that may have been abused here is haruto. Saki is going to be a weird one to discuss
(02:18:12) Ath: when i first heard this ep was "controversial"
(02:18:15) ilmaestro: yeah, especially if that's your opinion haha
(02:18:18) Arbalest: And i base that purely on one line she said earlier
(02:18:22) Arbalest: "being alone together"
(02:18:23) Ath: i thought it would be that scenario ilmae
(02:18:34) ilmaestro: oh, nice
(02:18:40) Ath: i was thinking back to gundam seed with flay and kira
(02:18:48) ilmaestro: yeeeees of course
(02:18:56) Ath: so i sort of was thinking valvrave was going to do something similar
(02:20:10) ilmaestro: imo what you're doing arby is thinking too much about whether saki thinks she has been abused or not
(02:21:28) Arbalest: outwith the scene itself?
(02:21:29) Arbalest: yeah
(02:21:35) Arbalest: the scene itself is obvious
(02:21:40) ilmaestro: and, as much as it is the exact question that is asked of the pilots, one of the key tenets of modern concepts of humanity is that you *can't* just give it away because you convince yourself it's "ok" to be raped, or to be in servitude
(02:22:28) ilmaestro: i might agree with you if you are saying saki has convinced herself that she hasn't been "raped"
(02:22:45) Arbalest: that's kind of what i mean. I'm not looking at what we think
(02:22:48) Arbalest: i'm looking at the characters
(02:23:03) Ath: i think the way next week's episode deals with it is crucial
(02:23:08) Arbalest: it is
(02:23:14) ilmaestro: but she has been horribly abused, emotionally as well as physically, and i think it will show soon
(02:23:27) ilmaestro: literal can't wait for next weeks ep, it's not very fair to show them so far apart
(02:23:33) Arbalest: whether this turns out to be something we give the "eh i don't like it, but ok" or not is all on next week
(02:24:18) Arbalest: In a way though, i think it will make Saki the more interesting character to follow
(02:24:38) Ath: now that the show has chosen to go down this path, it's up to it to up its storytelling to justify this episode i think
(02:24:41) ilmaestro: artistically, i thought the scene was very good, between the juxtapositioning of shoko's speech and the slightly distorted soundscape
(02:24:51) ilmaestro: that's exactly what i said in my post, arby
(02:25:02) Arbalest: Oh yeah, the way it was done, it was good.
(02:25:07) ilmaestro: i almost think they are positioning her as the key emotional center of the series
(02:25:24) ilmaestro: agree ath, they absolutely have to deal with this properly
(02:25:31) ilmaestro: can't just have it be something that "happened"
(02:26:26) Ath: i hope they can do it
(02:26:35) Arbalest: I think they can
(02:26:40) Arbalest: but this is sunrise
 
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Valvrave 10

Uh-oh.

Massive spoilers ahead. If you haven't seen it, I think this episode has serious issues.

So the first 18 mins or so was standard issue Valvrave, lots of fun, slightly insane with some tantalising hints of story. The election thing was kinda funny, and I really liked Haruto's interactions with Shoko. The thought of L-Elf organising ballot boxes just makes me laugh as well.

Then there was the ending. I think for a series to introduce rape as a plot device, it has to be damn well good enough dramatically to handle everything it entails with care. As much as I've enjoyed Valvrave for the first 9 episodes, there's no way in hell Valvrave had earnt that in my opinion. The end result was that I just felt a sort of detachment, like I had wandered into a completely different series. I can see what they were trying to go for, that Haruto had literally given up his humanity and that this beast inside him could take over at any time. But once again, I feel that the bonkers tone and execution of the previous episodes didn't support having this scene work. I had previously given Valvrave a lot of credit for being fearless and unpredictable, but in that case I think it was detrimental. I found the way they depicted Saki's reaction to be problematic as well. Were they trying to go for a situation similar to Susan George's in Straw Dogs? I'm honestly not sure, but I didn't think Valvrave needed to introduce an ambiguity there when the scene was problematic enough as it was.

The next episode's handling of the aftermath is going to be very crucial. If Valvrave has decided that it wants to continue to explore darker territory and deeper drama, then I think it has to improve its handling of drama a lot and stop trying to do everything at once. I was enjoying it a lot for what it was before, treating it like a comedy and I assumed the creative staff had their tongues firmly in cheek. Clearly I was very wrong, and I have to change my expectations accordingly for the rest of the series.
 
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Valvrave Episode 10 - Ok, i feel there is a lot to discuss here, so i'm just going to let my initial thoughts drive through and go from there.

Let's skip the info we get about the Valvraves for now, or rather, VVVI. The whole segment on the scene with Haruto raping Saki is pretty hard to ignore. I get why in the story they did it, it's pretty obvious. The VI lady took an interest in "Sex" after Haruto/Saki shared that kiss, nothing happened, so it tried to take control of Haruto and essentially read into it's curiosity. I get that, but was it needed here? I honestly don't know. The next episode is going to be pivotal on whether i regard it as a scene that i can say, on a story basis, i'm ok with, or totally against.

We all kind of agreed on chat that, we could have seen something like this with shoko and haruto happen on a more consensual level, but the VI lady interferring or controlling what happens for the most part. This was a bit out there. Haruto i feel isn't the character to look to either, his reaction from here will be obvious, at least at the moment. evasive, emotionally strained, etc.

Saki on the other hand is the character to watch. Kind of echoing everyone, she's been through a lot, and this scene kind of shows her...accepting? this series of events overall. Maybe that fits her hopes of "being alone together", maybe not. Regardless, it's going to bring her to the centre of the show in terms of characters because of her history and present situation. It must be weighing down on her hard, so seeing her emotionally explode wouldn't surprise me. It's really hard to tell.


Once i've let the episode sink in and i've had time to think about it, i'll add more, but yeah. Valvrave, craziness.
 
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I think the bigger issue on hand here is how Shouko managed to come in and convince everyone to vote for her by claiming to give them a school festival on the moon. I guess that just politics for you.
 
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Wow, you guys talked a lot in the chat!

And just because he's only attacked men in previous scenes doesn't preclude him trying the same kind of thing on them...

I was just starting to think that there was hope for Haruto and Shouko again. I wonder if the system is complex enough to want to emotionally isolate the pilots, or is it just reacting to the sexual invitation of the kiss in a simplistic way?


R
 
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My take on that is that the system is a relatively simple learning AI, albeit one that aggressively wants to learn things relating to the pilots emotions. I don't think it's acting under any orders as deliberately directed as wanting to emotionally isolate them, as such, in fact I even think it might be trying to strengthen the pilots emotionally.
 
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While I'm not surprised to see the rape scene given the dark undertone running through the show I was surprised by the length of the scene and how relatively graphic it was.

I think the long term impact and how Valvrave will be remembered for it (depending on what else happens in the rest of the series) does depend a lot on how it handled in the following episodes. One of the divisive opinions of The Wings of Honneamise is how there is zero consequence for Shiro following his attempted rape of Riquinni and easily it's brushed off, and that could easily be the case here.
 
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Episode 11 carries on pretty much how I expected it to, Haruto feels a little guilty but there isn't any real consequence (yet), as Ilmaestro says I think the AI is driving all of this.
 
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Episode 11

I wasn't really expecting that (nor Cain's fantastic charge to come off so well).

It looks as though Haruto is taking it worst. And Shouko never seems to get a break :/


R
 
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More episode 11 thoughts, since a number of the discussions on other forums seems to have become a war between people taking the moral high ground(?) and condemning those who still like watching the series ^^;

I do still like the series, so I want to explain why I think the series is addressing the plot twist that went before and why it's not cheaping out. An unedited ramble follows.

My interpretation assumes that the excited AI wasn't directly driving Haruto's decision at the end of the episode, as that would add an additional layer of complications. If she's controlling him even when he seems lucid then most of the drama changes tone entirely.

First of all, the show avoided involving anyone else in the incident (which I thought it might). The people affected remained Saki, Haruto and Shouko - though Shouko doesn't realise it. I've read reactions complaining that the issue of the rape was ignored until right at the very end then used for a daft plot twist; I completely disagree! It was driving the mood for the entire time Saki and Haruto were together all episode long.

We know that Saki has had a complicated past. Exactly what she's been through hasn't been shown, but it's meant that she has developed a hatred of her fellow human beings and a number of coping mechanisms to hide the pain she feels inside, so I think it's safe to say she's had a very hard time. Showing her younger self in the cinema when we already know she was suffering behind the actress mask emphasised this. Her behaviour throughout the show has always painted her as someone who bottles things up and doesn't expose her weak points to others. I found it difficult to identify with Saki after she first became a kamitsuki and started messing around because she'd buried her own feelings so deeply under all of the flippancy that it was impossible to work her out.

When she was attacked in the previous episode, Saki reacted in an unusually passive way (by her own standards), appearing to 'accept' the rape instead of fighting it. In the aftermath she avoids bringing it up, shows a furious flash of emotion at the idea that Haruto might try to apologise for it and, for the second time, mentions Shouko with a palpable bitterness, even though part of her is trying to sound supportive.

I've seen people saying that Saki doesn't seem to be angry or upset about the rape. To me, her conduct seems to show that she is very much upset and internalising it, with an enormous amount of raw emotion simmering away below the surface. Whether she's motivated by protecting Haruto (she does genuinely seem to care, and understands exactly how badly this is affecting him like nobody else can) or trying to protect herself is something I can't say, but it's hardly an unusual way to react to a traumatic event. Not everyone breaks down into tears and stops functioning; many people cope with trauma by carrying on as normal while they try to figure things out.

If Haruto was more socially skilled - or if Saki had close friends she confided in - we might well see more of a reaction from her. As it is, her behaviour has remained consistent with her established personality throughout the show.

It reminds me a lot of the way that boys in the real world complain about girls "playing mind games" with them in relationships instead of being open about their emotions, when actually the girl is just struggling to communicate her feelings properly without having a deliberate agenda. The opposite rarely happens, and indeed there's a sense that Haruto desperately wants to talk about what happened in a more direct manner if he can only find a chance to say what he feels. On the surface, Saki's behaviour during that awkward meeting with Haruto is a calculated ruse to mess with his head; maybe that's why people are reading it so negatively.

Haruto's situation is more problematic. It's never been in question that Shouko is the girl he loves, yet his overprotective nature has meant his physical situation has driven a wedge between them and now he's proposing to someone he doesn't have the same feelings for. The way that he was heading straight into danger before picking up on Saki's bitterness and rushing back (possibly risking Shouko's life further under the circumstances) showed that he was torn up with concern for the girl he hurt and desperate to set things right. That sequence, a few seconds long, spoke volumes about Haruto's sweet vulnerability.

I don't think he proposed to Saki for any reason more complex than wanting to take responsibility and sacrifice his own chance at happiness to soothe her wounded heart. It's not what I would do and it's not especially wise, but it's perfectly in character for such a kind boy torn to pieces by guilt and emotional isolation.

With Aina, the series already showed us that it wasn't a lighthearted mecha adventure even with its cheesy comedy moments and ridiculousness. The shocking twist in episode 10 drove the pilots' horror home on an even more personal level. Meanwhile, Shouko just indirectly killed her own beloved father (with the boy she wants to confess to being the one to do it!). Peoples' emotions are being violated in all kinds of horrible ways in this messy war, and the shocking rape isn't the only awful thing that's happened so far.

Sorry for the ramble. I feel that the show is portraying some difficult human emotions with a lot of sensitivity; not everyone is an extravert and it doesn't serve people well to assume everyone will react the same way to a situation. I'm definitely going to keep looking forward to each new episode.

R
 
Some very interesting points for sure, I want to both respond to some of them and voice some of my own but this is a tough show to get straight in my head! A lot of my opinion on the last episode is predicated on the belief that Haruto doesn't fully understand what he did in episode 10.
 
ilmaestro said:
Some very interesting points for sure, I want to both respond to some of them and voice some of my own but this is a tough show to get straight in my head! A lot of my opinion on the last episode is predicated on the belief that Haruto doesn't fully understand what he did in episode 10.

tbf he doesn't have a clue what happend, all he'll know is they had sex. he won't have a clue he raped her at all unless she tells him.
 
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I thought he did know, but you could well be right. He seems to know when he is going berserk though a few times, and seeing the state of their clothes and the place they're in he might have figured it out.

Though, I'm pretty sure he was a virgin at the time (not so sure about Saki). Given that he's a sweet young lad, he might not be too knowledgeable about that kind of thing at all.


R
 
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