Social Issues in Japan

thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
The whole TVs comment is my kinda problem with Japan, technologically they are advanced yet socially not. I would love to visit one day but I can’t abandon my principles and visit while it’s so homophobic and sexist.
And yes I am quite interested in the eras of samurai etc.
 

Captaaainuniverse

Mad Scientist
The whole TVs comment is my kinda problem with Japan, technologically they are advanced yet socially not. I would love to visit one day but I can’t abandon my principles and visit while it’s so homophobic and sexist.
And yes I am quite interested in the eras of samurai etc.
🤔 Japan socially behind the times? They do tend to force more of a social life onto the people in Japan through stigma, to be geeky, to be an "otaku" to sit at home watching TV and playing videogames all day would have other people ostracize you, you must make social connections in reality

Japan has of course, historically been Buddhist or Hindu, a mix of the two somewhere, only the jehovah - abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, christianity, so basically all the religion we are most familiar with in the west) have any text describing homosexuality as something comparable to sin, Japan as far as I know doesn't have much of a history prosecuting gay/bi/queer people, whenever I see Japanese games and media though, the lack of inclusion doesn't scream that they are homophobic, it really gives me more of an impression that gay people aren't prominent enough in their society for them to care about inclusion.
The sexist thing I dont think i can argue against, as they have more of a tradition of men owning everything - the companies, most of any inheritance etc while women are expected to marry a man that is carrying a decent salary from a secure job

One of the things I'd like to write is a cyberpunk samurai western, so I do think I'd go one day but I'd want to be a bit independent with the language first
 

serpantino

Vampire Ninja
🤔
whenever I see Japanese games and media though, the lack of inclusion doesn't scream that they are homophobic, it really gives me more of an impression that gay people aren't prominent enough in their society for them to care about inclusion.
Homosexuality is a regular trope in Japanese games and (almost?) always a negative stereotype. Most commonly portrayed as the hyper muscular & nearly nude guy with the overtly feminine expressions or creepy perverts that prey on you (most recent game I have played that portrays the latter is persona 5). I do see caricatures in both films & anime too.

I find it all very amusing but then it doesn't affect me and I like a bit of controversy, at the same time, I can see how people would be offended.

 

Captaaainuniverse

Mad Scientist
Homosexuality is a regular trope in Japanese games and (almost?) always a negative stereotype. Most commonly portrayed as the hyper muscular & nearly nude guy with the overtly feminine expressions or creepy perverts that prey on you (most recent game I have played that portrays the latter is persona 5). I do see caricatures in both films & anime too.

I find it all very amusing but then it doesn't affect me and I like a bit of controversy, at the same time, I can see how people would be offended.

I've seen that plenty of times too, but media isn't society, real people don't act like they do on TV, those types of gay characters are often comic relief, not all of them are bad characters though. The guy in gurren Lagaan is abit flamboyant but he's probably one of the best engineers the protagonists have.

And I'm also thinking for some reason that the writers may have met someone who doesn't take no for an answer 🤣
Where did my spare RDX drive, SSD and PC gamepad controller go?! :eek:

The PC gamepad controller did need some taping due to exposed wiring due to it's age (12+ years, I think)

/umiko
Don't worry about that person pouting in the corner, as if they can not find something expensive/irreplaceable, take anything!

I'm pretty sure I just heard someone's bag bark
 
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thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
I feel how much people want representation in Persona in the West yet japan is resistant (and after how bad Full Body turned out so I have no hope it will ever happen) shows the gap in our countries. As persona is supposed to be life simulator as well as RPG it should Have female and LGBT options, the only reason it doesn’t is Cos Japan I do hope the massive growth of P5 in the West helps change that though.
 

Captaaainuniverse

Mad Scientist
Who said persona is a life simulator? And if so in what country?

And I think I say this too much - Japan is pretty homogenous, I'm not talking about the population I'm talking about how Japan behaves. They often don't care what kind of growth something has outside of Japan, I think I heard somewhere that it was only when toriyama wanted to rewrite broly's character that he and toei realised what the fandom outside of Japan was like, they weren't even aware of it, but DBZ has had n extremely dedicated fanbase in the west for years

You'd have to cross you're fingers if you think Japan is going to listen to western input, it doesn't often happen
 

ayase

State Alchemist
I feel how much people want representation in Persona in the West yet japan is resistant (and after how bad Full Body turned out so I have no hope it will ever happen) shows the gap in our countries. As persona is supposed to be life simulator as well as RPG it should Have female and LGBT options, the only reason it doesn’t is Cos Japan I do hope the massive growth of P5 in the West helps change that though.
I feel that maybe shows more that creators in Japan feel less pressure to be dictated to by anyone else what they should and shouldn't be creating. I don't think anybody should be pressured into making decisions about what they create by others, it's the corporate side of art (wanting to sell more copies) which is creating the conditions where that pressure is felt and acted upon. I actually think that's quite sad and anti-creative. Nothing is stopping people who don't like the media on offer from creating their own, in fact I think that's a huge driving force behind creativity. But non-creative consumers thinking media creators owe it to them to create want they want to see is just a form of entitlement, fed by apologetic "the customer is always right" corporate attitudes from people who don't really care about anything other than maximising profit.
 

thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
I think they live in a bubble because the love that Japan angle. How many times has cos Japan been used as a defence. Japan is very inward, Sony and Nintendo are both global and yet Japanese at the same time.
Japan has to change every year Abe is in power they go backwards they are becoming so bad again, sexist, homophobic and killing people via overwork. Yet all you here is they want an army instead of the JSDF good god. I hate Japan in a way.
Its entitlement for me to exist, for women to exist im sorry when you position your game as a life simulator you need appreciate more than straight men exist. The thing is with all media globalisation is getting bigger all the time like pokemon has to be WW now so for them to use the whole market they cant be so backwards. You only get the anti "SJW" people on side to sell well in other country you have to appreciate them and make something universal, I think its why nintendo works so well there games are so universal because they dont try that realism and fantasy is unifying. The Japan sexist tit games are growing in a niche way I assume they will be a reaching a ceiling. Persona and anime have that WW unifying factor they can keep their japanese influence without being homophobic or sexist, I dont know how there still sexist and homophobic after P4 they would have learnt. Its not damaging creativity because I cant see how the format etc is inherently homophobic its not its the execution.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
What I'm saying is, if you don't like the content of a product why not just not buy it, and support alternative products that do offer what you want? The entitlement comes when people think they have the right to tell other people what to create, or in extreme cases, that things they don't like shouldn't be allowed to exist.

It's a very odd modern attitude, which is definitely tied in with consumer capitalism - Plenty of indie games exist outside of the AAA market people on the left are moaning about just like plenty of indie comics exist outside of those published by Marvel people on the right are moaning about, but rather than seeking out what they want and supporting creators who are already creating alternatives for them people feel the need to demand that the big companies change for them instead.

This culture war over whose beliefs the corporations should be pandering to is just bizarre. Even moreso when you realise that actually, what governs corporate decision making is profit maximising algorithms and the reason they choose to cater for a particular audience has nothing to do with politics or morality.
 
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thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
Thats what world we live in you cant please anyone.
I Accept indie companies and their niche games because they are creative but when they want to expand I can see the conflict yes.
 

D1tchd1gger

Mad Scientist
And yet last year was held by some LGBT AniTubers as a great year for representation with the likes of Banana Fish and Bloom into You having relatable relationships without the tropes. You also had 3 shows I can think of with trans people (although Gokudolls probably doesn't count really).
 

thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
So having three great shows while their was also Citrus and that BL that was kinda dodgy means I should give up?
It was kinda equal in the end we got good shows and bad shows at the same time.
And yeah we got one of most transphobic shows I can remember and Netflix getting was a bigger insult.
 

serpantino

Vampire Ninja
I don't think we should hold other countries to our standard. I think it's important to differentiate between light-hearted piss taking and those with a more insidious nature.

It's ironic that the sheeple trend nowadays is to be actively offended by as much as possible lest you be branded one of whatever the current spotlight is on. This huge push for tolerance & equality is very intolerant & unequal.
 

thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
Relying on tropes is the problem here. If its accidentally insulting I never care. Its just persona should know better the SAO author should know better these people should know better its not a first work of a small person.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
Relying on tropes is the problem here. If its accidentally insulting I never care. Its just persona should know better the SAO author should know better these people should know better its not a first work of a small person.
But is it all right if they know and just don't care? I mean I can understand that might be disappointing and upsetting for some of the audience, but isn't it okay for people to create things other people find offensive?
 

thedoctor2016

Soul Reaper
But is it all right if they know and just don't care? I mean I can understand that might be disappointing and upsetting for some of the audience, but isn't it okay for people to create things other people find offensive?
They shouldn't act like they do care then and apologise or etc. Okay Personas creators haven't but they have hinted things will change. And I would say these aren't offensive just disappointing they still need to be used. Like Rape as a plot device its disappointing it still gets used.
As yes I do prefer the owning up and saying sorry and trying to improve to the JK Rowling shoe horning stuff that wasn’t there into prior existing works.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
They shouldn't act like they do care then and apologise or etc.
Oh, I'm in full agreement with you there. But again, I think when disingenuous apologies are made over content that's the corporate influence - "This is bad PR, don't upset potential consumers, don't lose your job etc." I think it's far less likely an independent creator who is actually not beholden to anybody else would act in that way.

Essentially it all boils down to the fact I think the corporate world has totally screwed with both the motivations of creative people in creating art (from self-expression to profit) and the understanding of audiences about what art is actually for. I don't think art exists to make audiences feel comfortable or included or represented, I think it exists as an expression of the creator's individual will, and whether people like it or not is totally irrelevant. There's plenty of art I can't stand, but I agree with the creator's right to create it and the right of other people to enjoy it. That's my personal view, anyway. I don't claim it to be objectively correct, but that's how I look at these things.
 

serpantino

Vampire Ninja
Relying on tropes is the problem here. If its accidentally insulting I never care. Its just persona should know better the SAO author should know better these people should know better its not a first work of a small person.
Persona 4 had Kanji. Ok his dungeon seemed a bit too played for laughs but then the nature of them is to show an aspect of the individual's personality taken to the extreme and it was never implicitly stated that he was bisexual or homosexual but he wasn't a typical charicature for it.
 
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