Homeopathy

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
Thats right I said it, the H word! Don't get scared now.

The purpose of me starting this topic is basically because I'm interested to find out what the everyone here's stance on it is, or indeed how many even know what it is.

By all means express your opinions, but the purpose of this topic is not to get into a raging and silly argument, which so often happens when Homeopathy is brought up. So if it makes your blood boil causes you to post in a silly manner and claim "THEY'RE ALL QUACKS I TELL YEE", I'd apprciate it if you leave it at the door or don't post at all.

Ok as for my opinions on it, yep I'm a firm believer in the healing power of homeopathy, having actually experienced it myself I have no doubts. It's a shame that the campaign againts it has seemingly become more intense lately (no doubt funded by big pharma companies), and the recent NewsNight debate was a sad sight indeed. However despite all this it is actually gaining in popularity, and I have no doubt that sooner or later the tides of change will come and the way we prescribe medicine in the west is bound to change. I think coventional medicine does indeed have its place, but I think the way most doctors are currently prescribing drugs needs to end.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
My view goes something like this: Some things have effects which we can't currently explain the reasons for. Certain substances act in a completely different manner when observed by humans than they do when observed by machines. No adequate explanation has yet been found for this. My Dad was told at university that it was impossible send video down a copper telephone line. Now we have the internet. A lot of us (oddly, especially those considered "learned") like to pretend we are at the absolute apex of understanding about the universe, which is bollocks. There is always more to learn.

My belief? Homoeopathy has some kind of effect, but neither it's practitioners nor it's detractors can yet claim to know why. So they should all just shut their mouths and start thinking instead.
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
Hmmm, well the practitioners do claim they know why it works(and I think they have are pretty close to the mark). But yes I know what you mean, and I agree there is still so much about the universe science can not currently explain or understand.
 

Tachi

Mushi-shi
After a quick google search into what it is.... i don't see much to it, it helps healthy people feel a patients illness. to better understand it? Theoretically its acceptable, practically they haven't decided if it works anymore than a placebo, i don't really care what scientists say regarding health these days, it seems like they are never too sure if what they've said is correct or not.

Like in the 1990's i heard that they said cabbage was bad for you. about 4-5 years later they concluded that it was actually the other way around, and cabbage was good for you. high iron intake or something to do with cabbage stops a deficiency in your legs, so basically if your legs are restless when your trying to sleep or something, the cabbage was meant to help.

anyway.... i prefer the direction ayase went with, talking technology.
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
ilmaestro said:
Can you be convincted of being a homeopath? Maybe in some US states.

Yes, in the US it's actually illegal to be a homeopath, you have to call yourself a "Homeopathic adviser" or something, and you can't prescribe remedies you can only "reccommend" them.

Its completely ridiculous.

@ Tachi
I assume your talking about the proving process of a remedy? But yeah if your just googling for the first time you'll probably only find %99.9 negativity and misinformation. This is the net after all. For example the Wiki page on Homeopathy is complete rubbish and blantantly written by Ben Goldacre-alike.
 

ilmaestro

State Alchemist
vashdaman said:
ilmaestro said:
Can you be convincted of being a homeopath? Maybe in some US states.

Yes, in the US it's actually illegal to be a homeopath, you have to call yourself a "Homeopathic adviser" or something, and you can't prescribe remedies you can only "reccommend" them.

Its completely ridiculous.
Ugh, you quoted my typo and didn't correct it... :p

But, uh, seriously? I was making a bad joke. ^^;
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
Yeah its so silly, but that just goes to show big the pharmaceutical industry is in the US and how much sway they clearly have.
 

CitizenGeek

Guild Member
Homeopathy is fraud, basically. I'm horrified that so many people rely on homeopathy when they ought to be taking real medicine. Any effectiveness that homeopathy may have comes from the placebo effect, I'd imagine.

Also, vashdaman, you can't just keep saying "big pharma" is trying to shut down homeopathy without actually presenting any evidence of it. That's a conspiracy theory and those are not very interesting at all. Pharmaceutical companies get a bad rap, some of it justified, perhaps, but they are the people that are pumping billions of dollars in research for improved AIDS and cancer medications ... certainly nothing to scoff at! Besides, the righteous efforts to discredit homeopathy for the nonsense that it is comes from the forces of skepticism (which have been emboldenend by the recent rise of Hitchens and Dawkins).
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
First of all let me address the "big pharma" issue. Pharmaceutical companies may well do some good and as I mentioned I believe coventional medicine does indeed have a place (although I won't touch it), but the fact is that the pharmaceutical industry does so much harm and all simply for the sake of profit, that I simply can't even fathom they are defensible. They want to pump people(including those who don't even need them) full of potentially dangerous drugs before they are sure of the effects it will have on the human body, e.g the servical cancer vaccination and the swine flu drugs. I remember the pathetic scare mongering adverts I heard on the radio when they were pushing the servical cancer jab and it was truely shameful, and look what happened at least one young life was lost with the jab as the cause. And their defense (as one young woman who works in the industry told me) is: "Well, we can't test these things so quickly and know for sure what effect it will have on the public, so we just have to put it out there, hope for the best and wait. But it's worth it as swine flu is a huge danger and you'd be foolish to do nothing". Really, swine flu ended up being the biggest load of hype, and the pharma industry is probably sour now at the fact that nobody ended up wanting that Tamiflu crap. But the fact is, that it is not in any way right to have the attitude that it is ok to test unknown and potentially dangerous drugs like that on the public, while telling them they're bad people if their not stupid enough to take it.


As for my "conspiracy" that the pharma industry is clearly funding the anti-complimentary medicine campaign or at least a portion of it- well really its so obvious whats going on that I'm not even going to say much. But let me put it this way- complimentary mediine is more popular and more profitable than ever, while at the same time people are more cautious and worried about the potential side effects of conventinal drugs than ever before. Do you really think that one of(if not the) most profitable and powerful industries in the world is going to do nothing and take no action while this is going on? Don't be naive.

As for homeopathy being a fraud, how do you know? Have you had extensive exposure to a skilled homeopath, or some kind of first hand experience which reasonably led you to this conclusion? Or did you just formulate your opinion based on what you were told?
I came to conclusion that Homeopathy works based on first hand experience, and to be honest I find it quite laughable when people who have no experience tell me that I'm wrong or that it's all some big coincidence. Yes the placebo effect is real, but you can equally claim anything was just the effect of placebo if you wanted e.g a few hundred years ago you could easily say "there's no mystical "gravity" force, it's all just in your head".The fact is I went into homeopathy neutral (even skeptical), so if you can still get an uncanny placebo effect in that state, you can put anything you want down simply to placebo. I just wish people would make up their minds from their own experience rather than just blindly believeing what they are told.

Homeopathy works on the basis of stimulating the "Vital force", a very similar concept to Qi in chinese culture and Prana in Indian culture. Its not yet possible to scientifically measure these forces but they are indeed real.
 

CitizenGeek

Guild Member
The truth is that the collective weight of scientific evidence has shown homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo. "Qi" and "Prana" are supernatural ideas, and are very much the result of superstition and not of science. Homeopathy is a racket profiteering from credulous people. It's pretty disgraceful ...
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
Ok, this is what I was talking about if you clearly can't offer any form of interesting or insighful information would you please refrain from making pathetic statements like "Homeopathy is a racket profiteering from credulous people".
What I find disgraceful is that supposedly educated people will blindly believe the "collective weight of scientific evidence " without considering, who is doing the research, who is fundng or is there any possible ulterior motives at play. Also there is plently scientific evidnce backing up homeopathy but surprise, surprise its written off by the mainstream scientific world almost immediately and even noble prize winning scientists are called "quacks" by journalists just because they are conducting interesting research that is could support homeopathy. But I doubt you've done any substantial research into the sunject CitizenGreek....
 

kupocake

Stand User
vashdaman said:
Ok, this is what I was talking about if you clearly can't offer any form of interesting or insighful information would you please refrain from making pathetic statements like "Homeopathy is a racket profiteering from credulous people".
Hilarious.

'Insightful or Interesting Information' being roughly equivalent to 'completely supports my own viewpoint' I assume? At best, you're working under the false assumption that arguing against quackery and its advocates has any kind of counter argument. The homeopathy question is 'is it ********, or isn't it?' You're either going to like the answer we give, or you're really not going to like it. Or you're going to hear people tread around the subject in the absence of giving two shits. There's no coherent middle way.

The forums aren't your place to draw a chalk circle on the floor and go 'don't offend me in this space, it's my time to shine.' What are you even expecting to happen when someone comes in and says 'well, actually, that's ********'?
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
memorium said:
What the **** is Homeopathy anyway? Usually when somewthing is highly controversial I hear about it in a flash...

Back in the day, before all that science happened, there were still medicines. When science appeared, they tested it all to see which ones worked. The ones that were proven to have worked they called 'medicine', and you'll find these in pharmacies and prescribed to you by doctors. The ones that didn't work were called 'homeopathic medicines', because fans of it were still adamant that they did work, but because it couldn't be proven, they were not accepted as proper medicine.

Essentially, homeopathic medicine is the commercialisation of the placebo effect.
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
kupocake said:
vashdaman said:
Ok, this is what I was talking about if you clearly can't offer any form of interesting or insighful information would you please refrain from making pathetic statements like "Homeopathy is a racket profiteering from credulous people".
Hilarious.

'Insightful or Interesting Information' being roughly equivalent to 'completely supports my own viewpoint' I assume? At best, you're working under the false assumption that arguing against quackery and its advocates has any kind of counter argument. The homeopathy question is 'is it ********, or isn't it?' You're either going to like the answer we give, or you're really not going to like it. Or you're going to hear people tread around the subject in the absence of giving two shits. There's no coherent middle way.

The forums aren't your place to draw a chalk circle on the floor and go 'don't offend me in this space, it's my time to shine.' What are you even expecting to happen when someone comes in and says 'well, actually, that's ********'?

I clearly stated the reason for this thread was not to get into childish arguments, if that is not possible and people would rather tread around this thread not giving to shits, then that is clearly the best thing in my opinion.

Insightful or Interesting Information does not equate to 'completely supports my own viewpoint', I'm happy to read anything anyone posts as long as it is of substance and insight. I had no problem citizen greeks first post which is why I posted a fairly lengthy response. But in his second post he offered nothing of any value and just made totally ignorant and childish claim in the place of any substance. I don't understand why you find it so hard fathom that I would prefer opinions either told in a mature way or some kind or information/ knowledge to back up any bold claims.

Is it not possible to have a mature discussion about Homeopathy without someone resorting to "They're all bloody evil quacks" or something similar?
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
memorium said:
What the **** is Homeopathy anyway? Usually when somewthing is highly controversial I hear about it in a flash...

Ah, sorry Memorium I nearly forgot to give you an anwser, as no one else has given you a proper one. But bear in mind I'n not a homeopath and so can only explain rather simply what I understand

Homeopathy is holistic form of healing and medicine, and its all based on the law of similars. It was created by a German man called Samuel Hahnemann who was a doctor in the 1800's, he grew disillusioned with treatments of the day that included sucking blood out with leeches. The law of similars basically means that if you get bitten by a poisonous snake the poison from another similar snake will help to nullify the poison of the one that bit you and heal you. This was already around before Hahnemann as I understand, and his real breakthrough was discovering that the more diluted a substance is made the stronger the effect it will have on ones "vital force". So therefore in the same situation of the snake instead of giving you snakes poison its its raw physical form the homeopathic remedy will contain so diluted a snakes poison that its now more an essence of the poison than a physical thing, but one that could stimulate your bodies vital force into healing.

To prescribe a remedy its not just a case of "quick I'm ill give me a pill" the practitioner has to take into account the clients underlying emotional state as well, as that is often the root cause of illness. In this sense its more similar to TCM, than coventional western medicine which ignores that whole aspect.
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
vashdaman said:
memorium said:
What the **** is Homeopathy anyway? Usually when somewthing is highly controversial I hear about it in a flash...

Ah, sorry Memorium I nearly forgot to give you an anwser, as no one else has given you a proper one. But bear in mind I'n not a homeopath and so can only explain rather simply what I understand

Homeopathy is holistic form of healing and medicine, and its all based on the law of similars. It was created by a German man called Samuel Hahnemann who was a doctor in the 1800's, he grew disillusioned with treatments of the day that included sucking blood out with leeches. The law of similars basically means that if you get bitten by a poisonous snake the poison from another similar snake will help to nullify the poison of the one that bit you and heal you. This was already around before Hahnemann as I understand, and his real breakthrough was discovering that the more diluted a substance is made the stronger the effect it will have on ones "vital force". So therefore in the same situation of the snake instead of giving you snakes poison its its raw physical form the homeopathic remedy will contain so diluted a snakes poison that its now more an essence of the poison than a physical thing, but one that could stimulate your bodies vital force into healing.

You more or less just described how vaccinations work; giving a diluted or lesser amount of something to stimulate your body to defend against it.


More to the point, if homeopathy is any good, and if, as its supporters will claim, it is effective, then why is it still in doubt? It would not be in doubt were evidence presented of its effectiveness. Evidence which is well within the means of modern science.

tl;dr: if it works, why is there no proof?
 

ayase

State Alchemist
Mutsumi said:
tl;dr: if it works, why is there no proof?
Is Humanity at such a level that we are able to find proof for anything and everything which can be proven or disproven? Seen the Higgs boson particle yet?

You mentioned the placebo effect; how the hell does that work then? You can think yourself better? Clearly observation of the placebo effect demonstrates that you can. There is proof for this but no explanation of why it might be the case; only hypothesis.

Note that I'm not trying to take sides here. I just think there is a lot about the structure of the universe we don't yet understand, and I don't think anyone on either side of this debate should claim to know conclusively how it works when we obviously aren't yet advanced enough to.
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
Mutsumi said:
You more or less just described how vaccinations work; giving a diluted or lesser amount of something to stimulate your body to defend against it.


More to the point, if homeopathy is any good, and if, as its supporters will claim, it is effective, then why is it still in doubt? It would not be in doubt were evidence presented of its effectiveness. Evidence which is well within the means of modern science.

tl;dr: if it works, why is there no proof?

Yes, it does work quite similar to how vaccinations work. The key difference though is that homeopathy works on an energetic level rather than the gross physical level of the vaccinations. With homeopathy your just taking the "essence" if you like of the poison rather than the actual physical poison itself.
Also with vaccination they can't just give you the actual poison itself straight (which would be dangerous), they mix it with many other substances as well, but how many people actually know what these substances are?


"Evidence which is well within the means of modern science." While we are getting closer it maybe still not easily within the reach of modern science to prove yet. As I mentioned it works on an energetic level and this energetic level is still quite hard to scientifically measure.

However despite these challenges there is actually much scientific evidence that backs up homeopathy, you just won't hear it on the news(just like you no longer hear good hiphop on the radio :( ). Nobel prize winning scientist Luc Montagnier has done some research which supports the theories behind homeopathy, however it being what it is means it has been disregarded by the meanstream scientific community, and now if you type his name into google you'll see it regularly pop up in the "quack meter" websites. It is important to note however that many of the people calling him a quack aren't actually even scientist's they're jounalists let alone nobel prize winning ones. There is a lot more interesting reseach out there as well, and cutting edge reseach (which may or may not get recognized) being done on the subject as we type.


Also in the fear of bringing up "my conspiracy theory" again, the pharmaceutical indusrys cloud and power also needs to be taken into consideration, especially considering its known for it's underhanded play. They have their hands in nearly every pie imaginable. I really wish it simply were a conspiracy theory

Edit: Ayase's point is also a good one. It's also intersting if I say to someone who has told me Homeopathy is placebo "ok I'm just going to use the power of my mind to heal myself" they'll say "Oh no,no, you can't do that you have to get down to the GP whenever your ill". In other words it's often just used when it's convenient, when they say "its all placebo" they often mean "I just don't know how it works."
 
Top