Cogito Ergo Proxy simulwatch [RS] (29/11 - 21/12)

Geriatric hedgehog

Thousand Master
I was even lucky enough to find one of these to hang on the wall in my theater room:
Very nice. Which online international outlets would you recommend for anime & movie posters? I keep wanting to collect some for the cinema room/man-cave that I one day very much aspire to have (if only really wanting one was enough to get me one heh, and no I'm not asking Santa for one...).
Edit: scratch that actually, found the Beez DVDs for like 13 eur - will order that eventually, even if it annoys me getting DVDs in this day and age
Yeah I got the local release from CEX for that but someone on this forum also very kindly directed me to the reasonably priced European version with English subs available on Amazon France. Probably similar to the one you've come across. I will always prefer blu-rays as well but don't really have any qualms about getting dvds if that's the only way to legally watch something I'm after. The worst case is when there is no release whatsoever forthcoming nor anyway to stream, but crazy long watchlists help get over that heh.
I think that Ergo Proxy was the only one not created by humans, Proxy One described Ergo Proxy as his shadow, and I think he was unbound by the same fate as the other Proxies which gave him the ability to act outside of the restrictions of fate or impetus.
Yeah that makes sense and probably what was clashing in my head against the human-made argument. Well, looks like a re-watch is a must for this to tease out such minutiae.
On top of the rest of the story going on her character was a lot of fun, and a bit of happiness in the gloom.
Yeah Pino was essential to lift the gloom and also add pathos especially at the start and end of the story. Brilliant decision for the creators to have her to help balance the heavy themes somewhat. I was bingeing Fruits Basket at the same time and felt a similarity between the lovable rays of sunshine that were Pino and Tohru.
"the pendant is important" and 20 was like "I said 'THE PENDANT IS IMPORTANT'",
Dude your frustration and Monty python memes are absolutely hilarious!
 

Girls with Guns

Combat Butler
Very nice. Which online international outlets would you recommend for anime & movie posters? I keep wanting to collect some for the cinema room/man-cave that I one day very much aspire to have (if only really wanting one was enough to get me one heh, and no I'm not asking Santa for one...).

I can't really answer that question for you, as almost all the movie posters I've bought for my theater over the past 15 years, whether live action or anime, I've purchased from eBay sellers. My most prized movie poster I own I also got off of eBay - a 3D lenticular poster of The Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole, it's actually a 1/4" thick plexiglass poster with 3D effects that pop out over a foot in front of the poster.

3D Lenticular Effects for Legend of the Guardians Movie Poster
 
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D1tchd1gger

Soul Reaper
Episode 22
Didn't add too much, we knew that the proxies were the creators of their own little worlds. We do, sort of, find out why Vincent left, but another question pops up. Why did Real call Re_l Monad?
Raul died in very similar way to someone in a Kon film (Perfect Blue)

Episode 23
It was all a plan, which we were sort of told already in 15. But it was plan B and had failsafes written in. I assume the "pulse of awakening" was transmitted from the returning ships and activated the ending of the plan.

The autoriev virus is still a bit of a mystery, what I got was it was part of the plan to end Romdo, if the autorievs don't work properly then the humans are at a loss. I'm not sure how that ended up with the structure itself falling apart even if all the power was off. There was no big explosion or anything. The virus seems to be transmitted directly from the proxy to the autorievs as Pino was saying she could still hear Vincent/Ep. Talking of Pino, we never did get to see what she discovered in Mosk.

Real and Re_l seem to be clones of Monad one more successful, in Daedelus' eyes, than the other and that's why Ergo was drawn to her. I'm assuming that clones have excelerated growth as Real was a child until the last 3 episodes.

So Ergo was a creation of Proxy One and was made imperfect which in turn led to Romdo being imperfect, even though it seems from all the other domes to be one of the more successful ones, until he decided to leave and things started to go wrong. The domes remind me a bit of the vaults in Fallout where instead of being safe places they were experiments built by the company who built them to test various elements of human society.

When talking about the plan and everything, Vincent or Re_l (I've already forgotten!) said that the world seemed like it was recovering! Must have seen that off camera as most of the domes were f***ed and there was nothing but wilderness in between!

Overall quite interesting, but still not really satisfied with the answers and pacing was terrible. Could have easily cut 5 episodes without losing any of the actual plot. We would have missed some Proxies and a bit of character stuff, but you can do that and maintain forward momentum! The double episode in the twin city having a civil war showed that. We got a bit of everything in those: plot, lore, Vincent confrontated with the truth for the first time and some action.

I did like the aesthetic of the show, the character designs were very good even though sometimes they went off model, Re_l got numerous frames where she was pulling a gormless face! I liked Re_l and Pino as characters, Vincent was a wet blanket most of the time though. Raul and Daedelus were annoying in different ways, but that's more by design that we had to feel indifferent to them at best.

I gave it an 8 first time. I'm not sure if that's how I actually felt or whether I picked it because it was the closest to the MAL score and was new to scoring stuff in that way. I'll have to think on it more.

I've also got Witch Hunter Robin on DVD. It was one of the shows that appeared on AnimeCentral, nearly 15 years ago. If you check out the list of shows against what Anime Limited have released you might see a pattern. So bug @anime_andrew not @MVM for a Blu-ray 😜
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Thousand Master
That is on my plan to watch list as well!
It's very, very good and I can definitely see why it's considered a must-watch for any anime fan. It's incredibly earnest under the veneer of melodrama and bishojo pretty boys, and helped by a great & fitting score by YLIA's Masaru Yokoyama, that I keep touting to everyone heh. Tohru is quite believable as one of those rare saint-like human beings. If only every sad, lonely, frustrated or angry person had a Tohru in their life as a mother/sister/waifu/friendu/whatever, I honestly believe there would be no wars or world poverty heh. We were talking about massive episode counts earlier, and this is one I ended up inhaling in a very short period despite the 63 episode count. Right enough digressing and back to Ergo Proxy
The autoriev virus is still a bit of a mystery, what I got was it was part of the plan to end Romdo, if the autorievs don't work properly then the humans are at a loss.
I thought the same that it was purely to sabotage the Proxy-developed human settlements, but I think @Dai hit the nail on the head with the virus also being a third fail-safe to have sentience & human knowledge preserved in the autoriev form if all else failed. Can certainly see a dome going to pot if the autorievs rebel and there are no new humans being produced in the absence of a Proxy. Though it happening at such a rapid pace in Romdo was probably more to just serve the plot perhaps, or am I being too optimistic on the expected shower rate of decline? I don't think a Proxy's presence was meant to serve as a literal battery/life-blood to the functioning of the domes otherwise apart from allowing human replication. Spot on comparison with the Fallout series and their vaults by the way. In terms of the planet being more habitable, at the start I didn't for a second think that as being the case, given how desolate & lifeless it was portrayed as. Clearly that was not the case, for the original humans to see it fit to return and as you said presumably have the pulse of awakening set off, which in turn would be one of the ways to activate the cogito virus. Also in retrospect it must have significantly improved for the air to be safe to breath, albeit fever-inducing?? for a period, as presumably it wasn't following the climate catastrophe.
 

Neil.T

Titan
Just some belated translation notes from me this time.


Episode 19

I love this episode. If you told me it was based on a lost Satoshi Kon script, I'd believe you. It's got the reality-twisting qualities of something that could've come from the mind of the late great director.

There's actually an amusing bit of wordplay in the Japanese dialogue that doesn't carry over into English here. When he feels like Al and Pull aren't paying proper attention to him, Rogi the Cricket exclaims "Mushi ka yo?!"

The word mushi can mean one of two things, so the phrase could be translated as either "Hey, are you ignoring me?!" or "What am I, a bug?!"

Meanwhile, Will B. Good is a quirky character in using the English word "me" as his personal pronoun. See here for some examples from popular media of what a character's choice of pronoun says about them:


Episode 20

"If your mind were truly independent, then it wouldn't allow Re-l's mind, which is separate, to interfere with it."


Again, there's a little subtlety in the Japanese dialogue that might've gotten a little lost in translation. Near the end of the episode, after Vincent finds himself standing at the rudder of the Centzon upon coming back to his senses, the Blu-ray subtitles have Re-l say to him "It's my turn."

The verb she uses, though, is Kōtai (交替), which has quite a broad meaning. I'd have gone with "Let's switch places" as a translation, as it's clearly meant to hark back to the content of Vincent's identity crisis daydream and prey upon his initial disorientation.


Episodes 21, 22 and 23 still to follow.
 

Lordhippos

Thousand Master
The domes remind me a bit of the vaults in Fallout where instead of being safe places they were experiments built by the company who built them to test various elements of human society.

Yeah I think this seems like a pretty apt description of them.

Overall quite interesting, but still not really satisfied with the answers and pacing was terrible. Could have easily cut 5 episodes without losing any of the actual plot. We would have missed some Proxies and a bit of character stuff, but you can do that and maintain forward momentum! The double episode in the twin city having a civil war showed that. We got a bit of everything in those: plot, lore, Vincent confrontated with the truth for the first time and some action.

Yeah I dislike the abstract things playing such a large part in the episode counts. I didn't mind the stranded on the boat one as it at least developed the characters a bit even though the journey itself was halted.

I gave it an 8 first time. I'm not sure if that's how I actually felt or whether I picked it because it was the closest to the MAL score and was new to scoring stuff in that way. I'll have to think on it more.

For me a 7 I feel is fair, it's a good show on the whole even with some of the episodes I wasn't so keen on, it managed to tell quite a deep narrative and wasn't completely incomprehensible whilst doing it.

It's very, very good and I can definitely see why it's considered a must-watch for any anime fan

Yeah definitely interested to see how it is! Not started yet, need to find the right time to do so :)
 

Neil.T

Titan
It's all about fandom theories and mythology links for this much-delayed post covering the last three episodes of the series, along with another of my usual translation observations.


Episode 21

Just a note on Project ADW, aka Project Aus Der Wickel. Google Translate suggests "out of the wrap", but other translation attempts also exist, such as this one from an Ergo Proxy discussion page on Reddit:

The 'ADW' (Aus Der Wickel) Project's most credible translation is 'from the spool' (or thread), referring back to Ariadne

As for the "Ariadne" being referenced there:

Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos of Crete and his wife Pasiphae, in Greek mythology. By her mother, she was the granddaughter of the sun god Helios. She is best known for her pivotal role in the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur.

Diving this deeper and adding "Ergo Proxy" to a Web search of the name Ariadne, it appears that theories based around mythology abound among the show's fandom:

I think Minos is Proxy One, Theseus is Ergo Proxy and Ariadne is Re-L/Monad. In fact, Real does use the ball of string as it is meant to be used - she drops the end and thus Daedalus finds her


Episode 22

I've been spelling the name of Re-l and Vincent's home city as Romdeau for the entirety of the simulwatch, based on a couple of electronic documents we saw on-screen in earlier episodes, but here we have some graffiti sprayed on a wall encouraging fellow rioters to "Take back Romdo". (Maybe the yobs can't spell? 😛)

There's actually one further spelling of the name seen in the show, hidden in the flashes of text displayed in the opening titles. There, it's spelled "Romud", in a classic instance of dropping the wrong sounds from the original Japanese. Simulwatchers might have noticed that the characters pronounce the name "Romudo" (emphasis shown). That's because (with N being the rule's only exception) Japanese words are built out of syllables containing a consonant sound and a vowel sound. This leads to "rogue" vowels cropping up in the Japanese pronunciation of foreign words, like "band" becoming "bando" or "wife" becoming "waifu".

When converting back into the source language, however, sometimes the wrong consonants end up being dropped or the L/R sounds get misinterpreted, leaving us with a mistranslation. This also happened with Isao Takahata's 1968 film The Little Norse Prince, resulting in the main character's name being rendered as "Horus" when it's supposed to be Holse. At least they got Hilda right and didn't end up with "Hiruda".

I noticed, too, that the Ergo Proxy OP text also makes mention of the "cogit" virus, dropping a vowel that was meant to be retained.


Episode 23

And finally for this already long post, one last observation. In an earlier post of mine, I tried to shed some light on the names of the Collective and of Daedalus's pair of Entourages, but I intentionally avoided saying anything about Daedalus himself. That was because I wanted to avoid a potential spoiler for this last episode:

In Greek mythology, Daedalus was a skillful architect and craftsman, seen as a symbol of wisdom, knowledge and power. He is the father of Icarus

Or, in Ergo Proxy's case, he is the creator of Real 2 Real, who loses her wings and burns up into nothing after flying high up into the sky and into the sunlight.
 
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Lordhippos

Thousand Master
In Greek mythology, Daedalus was a skillful architect and craftsman, seen as a symbol of wisdom, knowledge and power. He is the father of Icarus

My Greek mythology isn't strong and that wasn't one I was acutely familiar with, but I was aware of the Icarus flying into the sun thing and the various Greek names that keep popping up, and assumed a link between Icarus and Monad existed as a plot feature :)
 
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